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Dogma Bites Man

hi RavinStar,

To me true religion is founded on and reflects and or echos the Spirit into this material world. Such "religion" lives by the Spirit.

On another level, this is spoken of by the saying, "man does not live by bread only, but by every word (the Spirit) that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord does man live".

I believe that by chanting an anti-Bible mantra we miss much in it that is deep Spiritual and mystical truths and also its everyday wisdom. These can be found by reading between the lines and or listening with our spirit-soul.

regards, why
 
RavinStar;

Your discussions with Why reminds me of the Allegory of the Cave from Plato's Republic. The people as prisoners of the cave felt the only reality was the shadows on the wall. They couldn't conceive of anything else as being real. Simularly, many people are trapped in the cave of religion and cannot see any other reality. I am discovering that it is almost a hopeless case to even try to offer other points of view to such people. They will certainly reject it to hold on to their shadow reality.

Create a great day, Majic.
 
Hey Majic,

We,"they", you and me are not really separate, nor is anyone a "hopeless case".

For all beings arise from an Ocean of wonderous Pure White Light, and this same Ocean arises from inside of the Light which is the One, and the Source.

I hope for a more universal religion, in the meantime compassion towards all beings, including ourselves, is a good course to follow on the great Ocean of Gods creation.

Good sailing to you, why
 
Thanks for you comments, Majic. Many people are afraid to venture into the light of reality and leave the security of the cave behind. It is difficult to know that you are being controlled and manipulated when that is all you know. As in "dark" there is "light", so in "blind control" there is "freedom". As a society we need to wake up to our "freedom" and start taking responsibility for our lives.

Why;

You are right, Why, no one is a "hopeless case". That is why we need reincarnation, because if may take hundreds of life times before many people will wake up to the realization that they have been dooped by the almighty church in the name of power and control.
I don't hope for "a more universal religion", like you do, Why. I hope for the elimination of all religions. With their elimination all dogma will be erased and some truths will begin to emerge in our world. Right now, we are so confused and brain-washed in religious mumble-jumble that we have lost any sense of who we are. We are not sinners pleading to be forgiven by that bearded man up there. We are creation itself. We are the essence of love. We are purity and wisdom. We are completely responsible for our lives and we can't "blame" a god for our downfalls or salvation.
Why are we so blind that we can't see our true selves?

Concerned, RavinStar.
 
Dogma

Hi Everyone

There is certainly a lot of learning on this board, coming from a variety of angles and persuasions. I admit I always feel drawn to the most loving words, not to the most powerfully stated ones.
(Thank you Deborah. )

My own opinion--and it is only an opinion, not a natural law--is that the good of any teaching, including reincarnation, has value only insofar as it makes us more willing to be kind in the passing, tiny moments of day to day existence. At some point in my life, without being aware of it as it happened, I must have passed from needing to be right to needing to have peace. At the same time and as a part of the same inscrutable process religion lost meaning for me--who had sought both wisdom and consolation in it over many years. It was not a decision I made because I had made decisions about 'faith' before and always gone back on them. But now, after this 'process' concluded--if it has concluded-- for some reason unknown to me, I don't need to 'see' it because I have discovered--and it's a complete gift, unearned and perhaps even undeserved--I can 'be' it. This may be vague. No, it IS vague.

Reading back over what I have written I think it may have an unfortunate tone, superior and smug, which I hope is unintended. The truth is I rarely know my motivation for anything right at the time. Some instances when I have felt most burningly sincere I have later discovered myself to have been a raging jackass. Perhaps this is one of those. If it is I am sure someone will point it out.
The mind, at least my mind, is more of a committee than a monarchy anyway, and the committee has no chairperson, people talk out of turn and out of school, and the chaos out of which all reality is said to have emerged reigns supreme.

This posting was written, I imagine, by the Spiritual Sub Committee which meets in a mental side room under the motto: "Everyone can be a Smile Millionaire."

Love
Howard
 
Hi Moss
Me too. Got the idea from Paramahansa Yogananda, a well-known and well-thought-of tacher from India who lived here in the US for thirty years. His foundation, Self Realization Fellowship, continues on in L.A. He said, "Don't worry so much about being a dollar millionaire. Once you get money you then get new worries about trying to keep it instead of relief that you fianlly got it. Be a smile millionaire instead. You already have millions of smiles in your smile bank. Start spending them recklessly. They are wonderful karmic investments that pay dividends both at the moment of spending and also later on in unforeseen ways." (That is a paraphrase of his teaching but I believe an accurate one.)

All the best
Howard
 
There exists a dogma that the Bible once contained some explicit references to reincarnation but that the corresponding passages were removed, some say, in the 4th century, and some say, later. This dogma has nothing to do with the historical facts and can easily be disproved by turning to the oldest manuscripts of the Scripture, which are available. Still, this dogma continues to bite some people here.

This is to point out that the Scriptures of the New Testament are available in manuscripts and in the writings of the church fathers in the original Greek beginning from the 2nd century AD, that they are published, and that all those interested are able to check the originals with the translation, so that any deception on this part is effectively excluded.
 
wow...

Wow, I loved those posts. GREAT!!!! RavinStar, I am sooo glad there are other people in the world who think like I do. The excerpt from teh book was wonderful as well. Deborah, your history was also SUPER interesting. I can never find any good texts with views from ancient relegions, and you posted them right here! Soooo cool. Anyway, just wanted to say that.

My area is full of people who usually retort to me the comment "don't let your mind be so open your brains fall out" when I tell them what I believe. Yeah....right. Considering they go to the church down the street from me that happens to be larger than a small African country and their leader-type-person drives a BMW. Not that I have much against the people or their relegion, just how they've decided to commercialize it and use the power it has over humanity to obtain personal gains.

Anyway, there's my rant, but great posts, again! Oh yeah! On more question. In the chapter excerpt it mentioned the church taking out passages and ideas, is it true they changed the date of the actual Christmas just so that it was coincide with pagan holidays, as well as easter? Anyway, just wanted to know...

~Phoebe
 
Hi Phoebe,

It's my understanding that -

In Europe an old Celtic tradition was that a local priest, on the shortest day of the year (winter solstice) would go to the top of the highest hill and burn a tree. At that time the average person did not understand the changing of seasons and the tilt of the earth's angle.

The Celtic Priests would promise to re-ignite the sun to full brilliance around December 25th. The largest pine tree was brought to the top of the hill and burned, and the priests power and control over the sun would be affirmed; for the next few weeks, nature would comply and the days began to get longer.

Historians believe that Jesus actual birth date was not in December, but in April. And Early Christians did not celebrate Jesus birth. BUT - the Romans proclaimed the date, and by coincidence, most residents in Europe were burning trees on hill tops on that day.

So today, we light our trees in our homes and celebrate the birth of a man who lived over 2000 years ago. Not thinking even once, about the winter solstice.

I will dig up info on Easter - later tonight.
 
The topic and replies are an enjoyable read both thought provoking and intelligent.
There will always be those who claim exclusive rights to God thumping their bible as evidence. Its the physiology behind this mind set that tweaks my interest, although I’m only a amateur in this field I would guess that it revolves around security .The past and its adherence to rules would provide a no need for thought way of life. And then there's the ultimate security of an eternal heaven the carrot dangled by religion.
When Darwin introduced his theory of evolution the Victorian churches were horrified they did their best to stamp it out. People could see the logic behind it and from that point onwards-church attendance dropped. About the same time Theosophy introduced evolution of the soul a concept not as wildly excepted but neither the less just as logical .Add to the mix education of the masses science, physiology, democracy and freedom of thought and we get to were we are today. Now it’s possibly to explore and study a myriad of belief s and ideas. I for one love it.
 
Intersting threads

Hi Everyone,

Well that was a lengthy read on my part and very interesting, and theory is a great way to do something with nothing. Problem is that no one knows the answers. People around the world are the same with the same hopes and fears, even those that are indigenous peoples.

The everyday questions that we all worry about are: Where do we get our next meal? how do we survive the next day? How will we carry out our traditions? What can we teach our children? Why are others stronger than us?

And the theological questions: Where did we come from? Why are we here? What happens when we die?

We can come up with answers for the first set of questions, and we can theorize about the answers to the second set of questions.

Alot of people and cultures have put alot of effort into the theorizing before us. I do not believe that there are any "definitive" answers to the second set of questions, but alot of what we can answer in the first set plays a huge part with the second set, especially "What can we teach our children?"

I'm waiting for the day that I get to that place in the universe where I can ask all the questions I like and get all the answers. Like: Was it aliens that brought us to this Earth, Pyramids, etc..., Did Atlantis really exist, where do souls wait to be reborn, was it the Big-Bang or was it God, Who killed Kennedy, etc., etc., etc..

But in my opinion (mind it is just my opinion) I don't think that such a place and time exists, and I only know that morality is in the eye of the beholder. I get more of a general impression that we all come back to the "fold". What that means, I really don't know but that seems to be the prevailing theme through many religions. (My own personal "picture" is alot of white light souls hanging out in a large white light "room" just "Being".

Maybe its just a state of total fullfillment and happiness without the need to know the answers, but as a living human being that is inquisitive I would hate to think I can never learn all the answers.

One of my questions that no one has a good answer too (again my opinion) If God is Love and Love is Light and we are Light, then how come there is so much hate and terror in this world. And why has it )hate and terror) been around for so long where no real headway has been made that the masses understand this God/Light/Love ideology instead its a handful of beings here and a handful there.

I think that's why Revelations only has a finite number of those that will be saved. I've seen too much hatred in my lifetime to ever believe that everyone will reach Nirvana or any other sort of Heaven. Which leads to another question, How many lives do you have to live to get to that point? And from my understanding of the various religions there have been very few beings that have ever reached that state among us humans, all of them great prophets of the religions (though I don't believe all of them were great prophets myself after reading some of their words).

So its a nice thread with lots of contraditions, lots of opinions, no answers but quite entertaining just the same.

HUGS
PAris
 
I personally think that reincarnation was taken for granted by Jesus and the immediate disciples, so it only came up as a topic of direct discussion when there was a fine point of karmic law. There are at least two instances of the disciples putting a karma-related question to Jesus (one being John 9:1).

There is also a direct reference to reincarnation in the Gospel of Thomas, from the Nag Hamadi documents, albeit in parable form:

"The kingdom is like a man who had a hidden treasure in his field without knowing it. And after he died, he left it to his son. The son did not know (about the treasure). He inherited the field and sold it. And the one who bought it went plowing and found the treasure. He began to lend money at interest to whomever he wished."

(Gospel of Thomas, Nag Hammadi documents, passage #109, Thomas O. Lambdin translation)

My interpretation:
The hidden treasure is the true Self or Atman, which is essentially One with God. "Without knowing it" means that the man is not conscious of this Self. Inheriting and selling the field means, reincarnating, reinheriting the body and the physical world of experience. We have three incarnations represented here for purposes of illustration, but of course the actual process takes many more lifetimes. "Plowing" means directing consciousness inward, seeking within oneself. Finding the treasure means finding the Self, becoming consciously aware of the Self within. "Lending with interest" means teaching and spiritual work after attaining Realization.

Steve S.
 
One thing that I find objective-able about quoting verses from scared books, especially the Bible, is that people feed the need to interpret it to fit their agenda. For example, Steve quoted this verse,

"The kingdom is like a man who had a hidden treasure in his field without knowing it. And after he died, he left it to his son. The son did not know (about the treasure). He inherited the field and sold it. And the one who bought it went plowing and found the treasure. He began to lend money at interest to whomever he wished."

and then he offers an interpretation of it. Maybe the literal meaning is the correct meaning. Maybe the translation of the original changed the original meaning. Maybe my attempt is the correct one - although I doubt it.

Interpretation by me: The hidden treasure is a book that the father never read. He passed it on to his son, who didn't read it. And then it move on to the next generation and someone finally read it and learn about charging interest for money that was lent, and began the first bank.

My point is that quoting verses from the Bible and adding translations to them doesn't contribute one little bit to any spiritual understanding. It only generates more dogma, and the creation of more branches of the original religion, muddying the waters of wisdom even more.
Majic
 
Peter V said:
Other aspects of The Bible people often ignore is ancient slang. Having studied near east cultures for a few years, I have found that many terms in The Bible were actually "slang" for specific meanings and usually meant something entirely different than their literal translation.

For example, the term "40" in ancient times meant "a lot". Therefore, when we read of rain falling for 40 days and 40 nights, we should consider the fact that the term "40" meant "a lot" when it was written. So, instead of it raining for 40 days and nights, it should read "a lot" or "many".
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Peter -
I realize this is an old post to be replying to (finally), but I only just found this.

Also remember that Hebrew letters also double for numbers. The letter Mem is used for the number 40, and means "water". Bearing this in mind, one can see how it might be very easy to assign the number 40 to the endless days and nights of rain, either through legend or mis-translation of the earliest texts.

Kathleen
 
This is a seriously heavy thread to follow.

Some very good points by many people. Both for and against.


Its my thought that most people will interpret what they want to from any HOLY book !

A close one to me is that after talking to many people from varied religions, they all agree that there is no mention of killing others. That has never stopped political or fanatical groups from doing so. Nor has it stopped adultery, lying, theft and a good handful of other " don't do's " that have been written for thousands of years.

There are people who will always find a contradiction to anything they see, hear or find.

Let people be people and have their voice and individuality !

Mark
 
Hi Deborah and all who read this thread. If Steve is still on this forum, I must tell him that the Christian-based churches in Georgia are still carrying the torch for the early church. The mere mention of any of these things brings immediate condemnation.

I attend church with my husband (at his urging and against my preference), and I find myself wanting to scream at times. The people are wonderful, but totally brainwashed. Some of the scriptures they read as the "lessons" make absolutely no sense to anyone. I find myself feeling like a total hypocrit, and some people are beginning to notice, although they haven't said anything, that in the responsive readings I will recite some, but others I remain quiet. It's very hard to be a free thinker in a mind-controlled world.

My husband, whom I love dearly, has even said "Don't ever tell anyone how crazy you are."

Now you know why I'm so thrilled to find this forum. Thanks for listening.
 
Hi pmahs --

Steve is Steve Bowman - Carol Bowman's husband. Yes, he is still around - he is the owner of the forum. We are gald you are here. :)
 
Fighting Dogma: Look at what they do, not what they say...

Bluescorpion said:
Some very good points by many people. Both for and against.
Click to expand...
In my discussions this is the point that most modern people come to when discussing modern religions. They end up with only personal interpretations of the words. Try for a minute to forget the words, and look at the actions:


In 543 AD the Emperor of Rome declared Origen of Alexandria a Heretic. Now why did the Emperor (not the church) declare the Origen (who died 300 years prior) a heretic?


I find it most enlightening to read the words of the Emperor, which you can do in "The Anathematisms of the Emperor Justinian against Origen", and ask yourself what threat did the words of Origen pose to the Roman Empire?


For me the answer is quite evident. The Roman Empire (like the Egyptian) was built on slavery. And the most efficient way to control a slave (or anyone) is to control his afterlife. What good is slave who believes in reincarnation? There is a scene in the movie Robin hood where the Bishop says to the king "you control their lives." and the king rebuts "but you control their souls". This scene demonstrates the earthy powers at play, and how the keepers of the word made they say what they wanted them to say in order to maintain their power-base. It shows why reincarnation was such a threat.


You can see the level of the threat by looking at the first of the nine charges that Justinian brought against Origen: “Whoever says or thinks that human souls pre-existed, i.e., that they had previously been spirits and holy powers, but that, satiated with the vision of God, they had turned to evil, and in this way the divine love in them had died out (apyugeisas) and they had therefore become souls (yukas) and had been condemned to punishment in bodies, shall be anathema.” (see http://www.origenes2000.org/PDF/Origen_HereticorProphet.pdf for further information.)


This is when reincarnation was erased from the history books and the Romans were very efficient at rewriting history. This is the source of the confusion in the words that we have left today from this source. Hope comes from the promise of Jesus to send the Spirit of Truth (John 14:17, John 15:26, John 16:13) to teach us and insure that The Word never dies. No matter how many books the world burns, the Spirit of Truth will return to teach them again.


Jesus only taught for 3 years before the world killed Him. Origen taught and wrote for 50 years, and when you look at what he accomplished, you can see how he fulfilled the role of a "Spirit of Truth". But since the majority his work was destroyed by the Romans, others were sent to teach. The most recent Spirit of Truth, that I am aware of, taught for 35 years in Switzerland. Fortunately for us, this entire body of knowledge was recorded and printed. It is now being translated into English and becoming available at http://probeatrice.ch/index.php/en/


Please read for yourself the references that I have posted and make up your own mind. One thing that most people forget when trying to convince others; its not our job. "Seek and ye shall find" is not just a promise but also a requirement. Each of us has to search for the Truth before we can find it. Enjoy the search!
 
Deborah said:
You're welcome. Carol did a great job - and Steve writing this chapter in her book. :eek:)
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No doubt that anyone championing reincarnation by writing about well researched literature does a great job. And Steve's contribution must be appreciated too, even though, if I may be allowed to offer a little criticism from my own personal, and not a professional perspective. On this thread I noted a few posts where logic and reason were made objects on which we are to rely on in forming our opinions on reality, and for overcoming religious dogma. However, those same ones seemed to lack understanding of their own logical "dogma", as logic can also be dogmatic, especially for those that have little understanding of the dialectical process needed to assess logic itself.

Regarding the first post on the thread, Steve seems to disregard, as also those others, that if the Bible is truly the word of the Father and Creator, and meant for humans to receive and understand His word, there is no way in Hell that anyone of us, emperor or common pauper, can prevent that word from being communicated to us, just as it was initially meant. And one poster got close to this, when he cited that the Holy Spirit would be sent to explain everything. The only problem with that was that it's not the HS that had enlightened Origen, or any other Christian Confessor, or any of the other early church fathers. The Holy Spirit has yet to come, to explain everything, and reincarnation will be one of the things that will be explained.

Now I also observed that two posters made a big deal of Plato's cave allegory, using it to make out the Christians who believe in a being, an old man with a beard, and separate from anyone of us, to be those very prisoners of the cave too afraid to be released of their shackles, and see that there is no one God, as we are all, together, what forms God. But I say that these two are totally ignorant of the cave allegory, and what was being presented by Socrates/Plato. Little they must know that reading further on, we are given that to be released from the cave, is in order to be taken to the realm of the unchanging intellectual realm of reality, where on the last step, the freed prisoner can finally catch a glimpse of the absolute Good, or as we may call Him, God.

This entire allegory, I said, you may now append, dear Glaucon, to the
previous argument; the prison-house is the world of sight, the light of the fire is
the sun, and you will not misapprehend me if you interpret the journey upwards
to be the ascent of the soul into the intellectual world according to my poor
belief, which, at your desire, I have expressed whether rightly or wrongly God
knows. But, whether true or false, my opinion is that in the world of knowledge
the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and, when
seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right,
parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world, and the immediate
source of reason and truth in the intellectual; and that this is the power upon
which he who would act rationally, either in public or private life must have his
eye fixed.
 
An older thread but one that has an excerpt from Carol's book in the beginning and PeterV (whom I miss ......he was knowledgeable - a great resource) Here's one quote by him -
Other aspects of The Bible people often ignore is ancient slang. Having studied near east cultures for a few years, I have found that many terms in The Bible were actually "slang" for specific meanings and usually meant something entirely different than their literal translation. For example, the term "40" in ancient times meant "a lot". Therefore, when we read of rain falling for 40 days and 40 nights, we should consider the fact that the term "40" meant "a lot" when it was written. So, instead of it raining for 40 days and nights, it should read "a lot" or "many".

Another example can be found with the word "son". "Son" in ancient times meant "One who inherits his fathers house". Now apply this to the statements in The Bible where this term is often used. When Christ is refered to as the only Son of God, it is not meant to mean that Christ was the only individual to be born divine. It means that Christ was the only individual to fully inherit the house of God/become fully conscious of His Oneness with God.

"Even as I do these things, so to shall you, and more"

------------------
Peter VanderZwet
True Origins
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"The kingdom of G-d is, in contrast to the Hindu Nirvana, an earthly concept, a just society. Olam habbah (the world to come) is a whole another chapter alltogether.
Also, in contrast to the Hindu perceptions, material existence is good. Sin is misuse of the creation.
While in Hinduism a person seeks to get himself a dwelling in the transcendental, in Judaism one seeks to make the world a dwelling for G-d."

As a Hindu this was a What? Which religion is teaching Reincarnation? Coming back to this same life is what Hinduism teaches and which one says Only one life and then off we go where? Where is this Heaven? God's Kingdom? Amazing to see such topsy-turvy views of religious teachings. It is the total opposite - the word Namaste means "I greet the God within you" - God is here with us - Nirvana is a state of mind, it is not about running away to some magic land where the living is easy

"material existence is good"??? Is that why Life is a sin and we must be saved? That we are all sinners and we must find the "right" God to be saved?

Please don't take our ideas and pass it off as your own
 
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Deborah said:
An older thread but one that has an excerpt from Carol's book in the beginning and PeterV (whom I miss ......he was knowledgeable - a great resource) Here's one quote by him -
Click to expand...

The stress is one following a person - which as the OT has made clear - makes sure that one stays within the religion and is condemned if one does not - and that was the problem with Reincarnation. As a Hindu, to me a follower of God Rama is a person who tells the Truth, walks the Truth and strives to do the right thing. Religion does not matter. Who is a follower of the Buddha? A person who is compassionate, strives for enlightenment - not necessarily one who calls himself a Buddhist. Any fool can call himself a Buddhist and I have met some - full of hate and anger, potty mouth and saying they are Buddhists. When I asked them what about one of Buddha's precepts - the Right Speech - they cleaned up their mouth for a while but in later posts they went back to their potty mouths

The Christian and Islamic religions on the other hand, say that one is a follower of Christ only if he accepts Christ as his savior and one is rewarded by Allah only if one is Muslim. These ideas came from times when Kings ruled and demanded absolute obedience and loyalty. If you did not swear loyalty to the King, out you went - no King would allow a disloyal person to remain in his Kingdom

For the former two faiths, the stress is on becoming a better person, Enlightenment, Knowledge whereas for the latter two it is more about getting the easy good life and X God will give it to us, but we must follow him and him only and assure him of our loyalty and must not follow anyone else otherwise he will get angry and won't give us the good life that we want. The operative word here is GIVE, for Hindus and Buddhists and operative word is EARN! Enlightenment is Earned, never Given.
 
Thank you for your thoughts RamaRaksha. Welcome to the forum, I look forward to reading more of your thoughts. It seems to me the principles of these religious institutions are all connected. And in a strange way I've come to know the "truths" in each of them... but these truths are mine alone, found along my journey. When asked my "religion" I have no defined group, instead I simply call myself a seeker... part Buddhist, part Christian, part Pagen etc etc etc. And I am quite comfortable with this. As stated many times throughout this thread the need for man to define God and harness power over people is obvious, and sad. The Great Creator within each of us is a powerful force of discovery, of curiosity, of good, and of compassion... this is the light in a world of darkness. Blessings to you... ~Tman
 
Tinkerman said:
Thank you for your thoughts RamaRaksha. Welcome to the forum, I look forward to reading more of your thoughts. It seems to me the principles of these religious institutions are all connected. And in a strange way I've come to know the "truths" in each of them... but these truths are mine alone, found along my journey. When asked my "religion" I have no defined group, instead I simply call myself a seeker... part Buddhist, part Christian, part Pagen etc etc etc. And I am quite comfortable with this. As stated many times throughout this thread the need for man to define God and harness power over people is obvious, and sad. The Great Creator within each of us is a powerful force of discovery, of curiosity, of good, and of compassion... this is the light in a world of darkness. Blessings to you... ~Tman
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There is a constant fight within me - the mind says there is no evidence for Gods and the Heavens, whereas the heart disagrees. How much is the heart's views dictated by the fear of Death? Religions have used this fear to promise an easy living in the sky - "all our dead loved ones will be there" - yet few ask about the living loved ones that we leave behind.

What frustrates me is that we seem to have moved forward in so many areas of our life but when it comes to religion, we remain primitive and backward - that Master/Slave religions - "Master will give us the good life and so we must get down on our knees and swear loyalty to him and then he will be pleased and reward us or else!" - dominate the world and that is one sad statement
 
RamaRaksha, the Great Unknown is planted within each of us. The "fight within you" is just that. I believe this innate curiosity is the tingling shadow of wisdom... and wisdom, for me, is knowledge sanctioned by the Creator. The fear of death is in some ways the opposite of wisdom, for by seeking wisdom fear of death dissipates into understanding. The vestiges of religious institutions will always hold people to their slavery, they feed the fear... the darkness. A simple truth for me is the concept of light and darkness, ie good and evil, positive and negative, perhaps yin and yang. Within each of us is this light, our free-will choice will dictate if it shines upon creation or not. ~Tman
 
And where is this Creator? How come there is zero to nil evidence of him or her? Lack of evidence is actually a good thing in that it means that a Creator, if one exists, thinks and treats us as Adults, we have to make choices based on what we think is right and wrong and not be guided by a "higher power". The dominant religions treat people as children, as Slaves - down on our knees and bow to the King - "every knee shall bow" - not this knee, though. God is not my King, certainly not my Master

I do not believe in other worlds - to me, THIS IS IT! This is the only world there is and that is why Reincarnation holds such appeal to me. I have no wish to run away to some magic lands in the sky - they all sound the same - the easy living forever - free food, drink and accommodation - we die and suddenly a Sugar Daddy being appears ready to cater to our comforts? - a total opposite to our world where even one's own mother won't let us sit around doing nothing.

Plus i am excited about the future world to come - another 100 years we will surely conquer death - i guess that will put an end to belief in Heaven. The world depicted in the Star Wars movies will surely be here - maybe dominated by robots or evil empires but i will be glad to find out
 
Steve said:
Pre-existence of the soul *does* imply reincarnation.
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I think this may be the oldest post I've ever replied to... :cool:

As a Christian, I agree completely.

In the Book of Revelation, there is mention of a record of every single deed committed by every person who ever lived...

Revelation 20:12
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works"

If we were to assume that all of the unsaved get thrown into the Lake of Fire to 'burn forever' and receive the exact same punishment, then there is no point in tallying up each and every crime or sin.

Common sense tells us that the reason for keeping such a list is to hand out a just sentence.

In other words...

Minor Crime = Minor Punishment
Major Crime = Major Punishment

This is where I believe reincarnation comes in and the preexistence of Souls. A common example:

Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations"

If we were to look at this from a typical Court of Law perspective, we find that in Jeremiah's previous life, he was sentenced to reincarnation, but with a twist...

There was a 'plea deal' involved in which Jeremiah would serve his sentence by becoming a productive member of Christian society.

In contrast, some will be reincarnated with a harsher sentence and live a life of great suffering... maybe even more than once if the crimes were great enough.
 
Base12 said:
Numbers in the Bible carry great meaning and are all part of a greater 'Code'.
Click to expand...
But, given the destruction on the earliest texts before the scribes tinkered with their copies, the multiple translations, and nearly yearly "adjustments", what is there that was in the original scriptures of the thousand and more Christian denominations?
 
Original post by STEVE BOWMAN - 1999. A great reference thread and discussion thread.
 
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