Intermission Period Experiences/Spiritual Pre-existence (merged)

Discussion in 'Reincarnation Questions' started by Titus Rivas, Nov 16, 2001.

  1. Titus Rivas

    Titus Rivas Senior Registered

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    Dear Carol,

    In my own investigations I have encountered several prebirth memories and memories of an intermission period between incarnations.

    The main ones thusfar:

    - A Dutch girl recalled that after having suffocated in a fire in her previous life she met a woman dressed in white who showed her several possible future parents. She chose a young lady with blond hair working as a typist. The woman or "angel" told her that in that case she would have to wait for some time before she could be reborn.

    - Another girl had extensive memories of intermission periods, which included paranormal knowledge when she was a toddler of relevant (possibly symbolic) names of places in the afterlife, etc. Her mother had several dreams which prepared her for the coming of this girl, one of which included a scene in which the daughter was interrogated by a team of entities about her choice of being reborn with these parents.

    - Yet another Dutch child, a boy of seven who had been remembering a previous life as soon as he could talk, recalled having been received by angels after his death, who allowed him to rest for a long time but then gently forced him to "get to work again" by being reborn.

    Several people have mentioned comparable, though less extensive experiences to me.

    If anyone has collected similar experiences, please contact me at titusrivas@hotmail.com. I would like to exchange experiences and views.

    Best wishes,

    Titus Rivas
    Athanasia Foundation
    The Netherlands
    titusrivas@hotmail.com
     
  2. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

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    Welcome to the forum Titus,

    I would be very interested in hearing more about your research. Your website looked very interesting! Could you tell me more about your studies regarding the memories of children in an intermediate state or intermission period (MIPS)? Do you regress children? Or are they only spontaneously talking about this "in-between state of awareness"?

    The story of Shai is fascinating.

    Are you writing a book about your research? I wasn't clear on that from the site.

    ------------------
    Love and Light,
    Deborah

    The soul's Center...is God.
     
  3. Titus Rivas

    Titus Rivas Senior Registered

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    Dear Deborah,

    Thanks for your nice reply!

    The kind of research I´m doing in this field boils down to the study of spontaneous experiences. Comparable to Carol´s work and for that matter to the work of Dr. Ian Stevenson.

    I have published a book in Dutch about reincarnation research in general and my own work in particular, Parapsychologisch Onderzoek naar Reincarnatie en Leven na de Dood (Deventer: Ankh-Hermes, 2000). Shai´s story is also in this book, i.e. a summary of the case. I would appreciate it if someone would one day translate the book into English.

    I have also prepared a manuscript in English written by Dr. Kirti Swaroop Rawat and myself, "Reincarnation: How strong is the scientific evidence?". It still needs some editing and then we will it present it to a publisher.

    A next book I´m planning to write will concern new Dutch Cases of the Reincarnation Type and it will certainly look at memories of an intermission period and announcing dreams.

    Best wishes,

    Titus Rivas
     
  4. barbara

    barbara Senior Registered

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    dear titus, this may have already been mentioned in research or other places, but not too long ago I saw a segment on Unsolved Mysteries exploring the genious of a small child prodigy.

    He told his mother when he was 2 or 3 years of age that he chose her to be his mother when he "looked through a hole in heaven" and saw her and knew he wanted her to be his mother because she would be able to help him do the things he had to do. I like the idea of "holes" in heaven.

    love, barbara
     
  5. Titus Rivas

    Titus Rivas Senior Registered

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    Dear Barbara,

    Last Sunday I had a conversation with a mother from Enschede, The Netherlands. She told me her eldest son had claimed he had chosen her and his father as parents before he came them. He had seen "traffic signs on the clouds" with their names on them, from which he had to make a choice.

    Titus
     
  6. Titus Rivas

    Titus Rivas Senior Registered

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    This Christmas, a Dutch lady called Anne-Marie told me the following about her intermission period memories:

    "I did not want to be born, I was panic-stricken. A friendly old man with a beard softly tried to persuade me that I should go to earth. He promised me I would never be alone. There would always be beings to assist me. My fears were based on the images of the life I was facing. I really didn't have the courage.
    Finally, I was born anyway, very frightened, while the man was trying to reassure me. Considering my life; everything happened as seen [during the intermission period]. The promise has been kept till this very day."

    Titus Rivas
     
  7. Yong

    Yong Guest

    Titus, did you ask her if she was born despite choosing not to? If not, would you ask her? It's not clear from the quote "I was born anyway" whether it was her choice or something (or someone) forced her to.

    I don't know if reincarnation hypothesis is true, but it certainly begs so many questions. One of the questions that puzzles me the most is the purpose of it all. Two possible answers I've considered are 1) for learning, and 2) for enjoyment. But (1) begs the further question, "For what?" Is there some sort of test? Is learning supposed to help us enjoy afterlife more? Is it supposed to lead to something else that is good in itself? Because I don't see learning as something good in itself but merely a kind of tool that might be useful if you had some other purpose. Learning how to ride a bicycle is useful if you want to ride one, but otherwise there's no point to it. Unless it's for the enjoyment which leads us to (2). So maybe think of the earthly life as a kind of game or adventure. But in the case you talked about, it doesn't seem as if she liked the life she was facing at all. It didn't seem like she chose to be born for enjoyment (if she chose to be born at all). Which then begs the question, Why?

    Also if your life is determined in advance (if you could see exactly how your life would unfold before being born), I don't see the purpose in actually taking that life. That's like an actor who sees the script and knows how it's supposed to go and deciding to go with it anyway. Any "review" that you might have after the end of that life would be pointless in terms of reviewing your life choices because all that was already decided before you even chose to be born. So if you chose the life of a murderer, for example, it can't be your fault, it wouldn't make any sense to feel shame after living that life any more than it makes sense for an actor to feel shame about playing a murderer in a movie. If there's anything to be gained, it can only be in terms of the experiences themselves. Did you learn courage as a result of living that life? Did you learn generosity? Etc. But why? Is courage, for example, something useful in the afterlife?

    Yea, I'm not expecting you to have an answer for any of this, I'm just thinking out loud (can't help it coming from a philosophy background).

    In another of your example, you mention someone who's born "to get back to work." I wonder what exactly is meant by that. Would you pursue it? Is there some structure in the afterlife such that each soul is obligated to do some "work" some of which include being born on this planet from time to time?
     
  8. Susie

    Susie Dreamer-former moderator

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  9. Susie

    Susie Dreamer-former moderator

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    Hi Yong,

    Welcome to the forum!

    You are so right, if your life is predestined, then there would be no point in reincarnation. We would all simply be clones of this all mighty energy who decides what kind of life we live, how, to whom....

    The truth is that we, as souls, have free will and that there is no predistination or predetermination at all to our lives not even by us, who create our reality. I think we can create possibilities to learn what our soul need to learn, but we always have choices as to that path or another.

    I don't know if this answers any of your questions on predistination or not, but just wanted to share some of my thoughts.

    Susie

    ------------------
    Free will allows me to choose my path, but my Higher Power lights the way....
     
  10. Tamera

    Tamera Senior Registered

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    Yong,
    What I believe is that we set the "script" for our own life "movie", if you will, but as any actor or director knows, the success of the movie is really determined by how well the actor plays his/her part.

    You may set up your life before you get here, and have all of the actors and props in place, but then when you get here you "forget" the script and have to adlib as you go. It is the utimate test of improvisation!

    We do, on a higher level, "know" how it is supposed to go, but we, as the main characters, have the ability to change the story line. We will, I believe, ultimately attain our main goal in this life, but we may take detours along the way. Which is what makes life so interesting for those of us who choose to come here. If everything was SET IN STONE, so to speak, life would get pretty boring, don't you think?

    Also, I think that explains the reason for the review afterward. Because we forget the script and hence have the ability to change it, we must then review it to make sure we eventually attained our goal and also, I think, to see where we can improve next time.

    Or maybe we touched on something in this life that we would like to explore further in our next life but it didn't fit into our current theme, so during our review we can learn ways to develop it.

    This is just my personal theory. I hope it helps you.

    Titus,
    Please, do share more about your experiences with people and their lives IN BETWEEN lives. This is a subject that has facinated me, because most people experience similar things! I have used hynotherapy on a few people (very much a fledgling at this mind you) and I can never get them to stay in that in between stage long enough to really explore it! Of course, I have only done this as a novelty thing with a few people. But I would be curious to learn what your experiences are. Thanks for the interesting topic!

    Tammy


    ------------------
    Seeking Truth
    Gaining Knowledge
     
  11. Yong

    Yong Guest

    Hi Susie, Tammy ... Thanks for the welcome.

    Susie, I don't know if predestination would make reincarnation pointless. Have you seen Arnold Schwarzenegger movie "Total Recall"? Think of reincarnation like that machine his character uses for "vacation" except that you decide in advance every last detail of what you'd experience. It's such a good machine that you don't even have to lose a sense of "free will." Maybe the machine can do a psychological analysis on you and somehow figure out exactly what choices you'd make if you were to make them on your own without any outside pressure. And together with this info, it adjusts the situations, accidents, and such so that you'd make just such and such choices, just as you decided before going into that machine.

    The point I was making is that the point of reincarnation can't be about figuring out what choices you'd make if you were to take that life. This is the case if predestination is true because you'd already know that before even taking that life. (No need to figure out the answers if you already know.) But it may still be useful, even valuable. Even if you know exactly what life you'd lead, it may be the most exciting life possible and you might take it just for the sake of enjoyment. After all, when you are born, you don't REMEMBER what you planned or how it's going to go. As far as you know it's fresh, it's new, you're making decisions as if for the first time. And it's exciting! (Well, if you planned it well.) Tammy, I think this goes to something you said. Even if everything was set in stone, I don't think life would thereby become boring. In fact, I don't think the issue of predestination has anything to do with how exciting the life would be because you won't remember any of the planning (whether predestined or not). That just depends on the life you planned. If you set in stone a very dull life, then it'd be very dull. But if you planned a very exciting life, then it'd be very exciting.

    As for improvization, I think a proponent of predestination could say that "forgetting" IS part of the script. You're SUPPOSED to forget and act as if you're making the decisions for the first time. It's just that you've known all along (maybe because in the afterlife you know yourself very well and exactly what you'd choose given certain body, memory, genes, environment, and desires) such that it's possible to create the environment and circumstances to tailor an exact script and set of experiences you'd go through. Or at least, if not you, then God would know you well enough to tailor the new life in that way. So when you think you're adlibbing, you're really just following the script exactly as it was presented in the in-between state. Free will vs. determinism is a very old debate in philosophy and even though whether free will is compatible with determinism or complete foreknowledge is still debatable, certainly the ILLUSION of free will is compatible with both. And this is all one needs for predestination.

    But even though I see no conceptual difficulty with predestination, I can't accept it as an empirical hypothesis. My life so far has been bad enough (at least I've made enough irrational choices in my life) that I can't take seriously the idea that I actually PLANNED all this on purpose before I was born and actually decided to go through with it. If I did, I'd like to go back in time (and life) and kick his you-know-what to put some sense into him.

    The only reason I might've agreed to such a life is if somehow the rest of my life would turn out so unbelievably well that I'd accept the bad parts for the sake of living the second half (the good parts). But that'll have to be some truly amazing second-half, I tell you, a truly amazing "comeback" so to speak. Though, actually, all these fortune cookies have been predicting exactly that . . . ah nevermind, you'd just laugh if I told you . . .

    Anyway, I can think of many examples of sad, tortured, lonely lives (not to mention violent deaths and struggles) that no one in their right mind would actually CHOOSE to take such a life. If reincarnation hypothesis is true, I can only conclude that something must've gone wrong in the execution of the plan, that even though you planned something you wanted, something went wrong. But then predestination would have to be false. So in the end I think I'm in agreement with you guys regarding predestination.

    But I'm not positive. Something still nags at me. Maybe even very tortured lives are worth taking if the lessons you'd learn as a result are truly valuable. And maybe these lessons you can't really learn by just "watching the movie." Maybe you have to actually LIVE it, actually FEEL the emotions and pain first-hand. Because of this possibility, I can't rule predestination out.

    But I wonder what lessons could be so valuable as to warrant such things, and what the purpose of learning is anyway. If there's some higher purpose, I can understand. For example, say that the earthly life is really a training-ground or school for souls who aspire to be responsible gods or creators. You go through this training by learning all that life has to teach you so you won't, when you graduate and go about creating a universe of your own, become a vindictive, childish God like that of the fundamentalist Christians who tortures people for eternity for merely not believing in him. Talk about pure speculation, hehe. But then, what would be the purpose of being a god? Is it a better way to enjoy oneself? Is it ultimately about enjoyment? I do think enjoyment is something good in itself (that requires no further justification), so that'd do. But this is a sort of view I've never heard from people who profess to believe in reincarnation. It's always something that sounds pretentious to me. Like "perfection." Or "evolution." Or "uniting with God." None of which is good in itself. (If uniting with God is a very painful experience, I'd say that's a bad thing.) Oops, I think my philosophical hedonism is beginning to show . . . I didn't mean to let that slip . . .
     
  12. angel4ever

    angel4ever New Member

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    Welcome to the forum. I was wondering: Do some people have dreams about this? About five months, ago I had a dream where I was in this weird place. It was mostly white. There were two "pools" full of water.(At least, they looked like pools.) I also saw a bunch of people dressed in white. I couldn't tell if they were male, or female and they were all the same height. At first, I thought it was just a dream. After thinking about it for awhile, I thought maybe, it was an astral plane. The same place you go between lives, or something like that. And those people in white, they were probably spirits. Could this be a memory from before I was born?
     
  13. Titus Rivas

    Titus Rivas Senior Registered

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    Dear Yong,

    Thanks for your comments!

    I did ask Anne-Marie if she was forced or not. It seems it rather was some kind of "persuasion" which may be comparable to what people who have experienced a Near-Death Experience sometimes tell us. They'd really prefer staying in the wonderful reality they find themselves over going back to earth.

    Then, you touch on the subject of the purpose of reincarnation. One of the reasons I can imagine is that physical reality makes it harder to escape from especially the harder insights about ourselves and others by withdrawing from them than into a private world. You talk about enjoyment, well, I believe that the more we develop ourselves the greater becomes our capacity of enjoying ourselves. Besides, what about loving others too? Physical reality may be very suitable for heightening our awareness of ourselves and others. At least, that is a theory I personally hold.

    Titus Rivas
     
  14. Titus Rivas

    Titus Rivas Senior Registered

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    Dear Susie,

    Thanks for your links, especially the second one is very interesting!

    Dear Tammy,

    Thanks for showing so much interest in this topic.

    Dear angel4ever,

    Yes, I do think this could be a memory of an intermission period.

    To share something with you in this respect. When I was a teenager I dreamed I visited a temple which was dedicated to a female divinity, presumably a "Goddess of Wisdom" or something. There were a man and woman in priestly robes who welcomed me and as it were reminded me of the fact that I somehow belonged to their "cult" or "community" and that I had a (presumably intellectual or scholarly) "mission" to accomplish in this life. I was told I should not forget it. It really felt like a reminder.

    Titus Rivas
     
  15. Titus Rivas

    Titus Rivas Senior Registered

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    Very recently I got several messages from another lady from Enschede, The Netherlands. Let me quote from what she has sent me:

    "First of all my birth story:
    I did not want to be born, I was very scared. A friendly bearded old man convinced me that I really should go to earth. He promised me that I would never be alone. I would always have assistants. My fears were based on the images of the life ahead."

    "I was born filled with fear, while that man was talking to me and trying to reassure me. As for my life: everything occurred as I had seen. The promiss he made was kept until this very day."

    "One of the things I have seen was how my father tried to strangle me. I was going to be beaten too. It was as if was allowed to have a preview of the life ahead. That explains why I was so frightened."

    Anne-Marie also told me that she had to undergo the terrible experiences in her present life because they were meant as some kind of "penance" for something she had done in her past.

    If she accepted this life she would not have to be born again into a similar terrible situation. She had to be born anyway. She was given the choice of being born into a more harmonious family, but that would mean yet another (presumably harder) incarnation after this one.

    Also, after the record had been set straight so to speak, she was given the choice between staying alive or dying. If she chose the first possibility, life would become a lot more bearable.

    She has also told me that she's always had these memories of an intermission period; i.e. from the very beginning of this life. Her eldest sister told her she used to talk about it too, but that nobody paid any attention to her story.

    I have no particular valid reason to seriously doubt this remarkable account.

    Titus Rivas
     
  16. Yong

    Yong Guest

    Hmmm . . . penance . . . then my next life better be really good cuz I think I've done enough "penance" for several lifetimes . . . Maybe I was Hitler in my previous life or something . . .
     
  17. Titus Rivas

    Titus Rivas Senior Registered

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    Dear Yong,

    I agree with you that the penance-hypothesis does not seem very attractive. But then again, we do NOT need to conclude from cases wherein bad experiences would boil down to a result of "bad karma" based in a person's own actions, that suffering here on earth would NORMALLY be based on it. Meaning that like Job's friends in the Bible we would be able to infer from a person's misfortune that he or she must have done something terrible in the past.
    Alternative theories for cases which aren't based on retribution might be, for instance,
    that we can sometimes learn new things from certain unpleasant experiences, or that we need them to get stronger or that we are tested to see if we are prepared for some important task (the common theme of testing initiation rites), etc.

    There is an alternative, namely that the "penance" is based on some people's own psychological need of paying for immoral deeds. Do you know the movie The Mission with Robert de Niro? It might be compared to the process the Spaniard he portrays undergoes.

    So we have two possible models for cases in which there really seems to be a link between evil actions in the past and suffering in the present:

    - The classical Karma-theory, tit for tat on a very strict, ruthless basis.
    - A psychological theory based on the reported self-judgement that takes place in many BDEs. We sometimes can't avoid the consequences of our evaluation or ourselves and in such cases it could in theory be "therapeutical" to undergo some kinds of suffering. Although there are better ways I would say, such as a doing a lot of good deeds.

    If I'm not mistaken Shai, one of the persons with memories of previous lives I have studied, told her mother as a young child that in some cases souls who collaborated with the nazis would have to undergo being born during a miscarriage. That certainly sounds grim and it can hardly be ascribed to fantasy on Shai's part I'm afraid. But even in such cases it could be a matter of karmic necessity but also of acting out the guilt certain people experience inside.

    Titus Rivas
     
  18. Titus Rivas

    Titus Rivas Senior Registered

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    Oops, in my former message I used the abbreviation BDE! I'm very used to it, that's why. It is the Dutch variant of NDE, Near-Death Experiences, namely Bijna-Dood Ervaringen.

    Sorry for any possible confusion!

    Titus
     
  19. angel4ever

    angel4ever New Member

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    I just read your link about Shai and thought it was interesting. I also think I lived during the Holocaust, but I don't think that's when I died. My guess is that I was born in the 20's, or 30's and lived as a Non- Jew during the Holocaust. Then, I died somewhere around the 60's or 70's. I read that if you are interested in a certain time, you probably lived there in a past life. I have been interested in the Holocaust,60's and 70's.

    ------------------
    angel4ever
     
  20. Titus Rivas

    Titus Rivas Senior Registered

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    Maybe sometimes it can be true that someone has lived in all the periods he or she feels attracted to, but not in all cases. For example there are historians who are simultaneously interested in exactly the same period of time in two different cultures, which are isolated from each other...

    Thanks for your response!

    Titus Rivas
     

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