Karma - an in depth look

Discussion in 'Parapsychology' started by AOSpare, Aug 25, 2014.

  1. AOSpare

    AOSpare Zos Kia Cultus

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    Karma cannot be fully understood apart from the Law of Reincarnation. The two are wholly
    inseparable. If karma is the Law, then reincarnation is the Vehicle of the Law. The two, working
    together, can better be understood by the term Cyclic Law, because each acts as an interlocking
    progressive cycle for the other. It is an understanding of the Law of Reincarnation that explains
    all the apparent paradoxes of karma.
    The Inner Workings of Karma
    To go into karma just a little bit deeper: all the thoughts, actions and emotional desires and
    cravings we have in life create magnetic vibrations in our aura which affect a bank of psychic
    mechanisms in our consciousness which are called “Skandhas” in the Ancient Wisdom.
    The Skandhas (it’s a Sanskrit word) are groups of qualities which make up both the
    subjective and objective personality of a person. There are five groups of Skandhas in our
    psychic make-up: 1) Form (Body), 2) Sensations, 3) Consciousness, 4) Motives (Karma), and 5)
    Knowledge. These Skandhas are constantly—every second of our lives—changing and
    rearranging themselves according to our every thought and action. It’s our own inner computer.
    Thus our consciousness improves or degenerates by means of these Skandhas according to the
    quality of the vibrations we generate. These Skandhas put together what is our “Karmic life disk”
    —the one which goes into the Cosmic Mainframe and, after being processed, is reformatted for
    the next life. Thus it is our Skandhas which stay with us from lifetime to lifetime; organizing and
    determining our spiritual progress towards perfection through everything we think and do. This
    is the most profound of the operating procedures of the Law of Karma, vividly pointing out that
    there is a karmic link not only between planes of the visible and invisible worlds but also
    between our human and psychic bodies as well as our present and past lives. As Marcus Aurelius
    observed, “That which comes after ever conforms to that which has gone before.”
    The work of the Skandhas comprises the very foundation of our spiritual growth. This is
    what is behind the fact that we never reincarnate as the same personality we were in our previous
    life. We may have some of the same karmic traits, especially mental ones, but we are never the
    same person. All physical and mental life in the Universe is in constant progressive motion and it
    is reflected in our new appearance and new purpose in our new life. All of this is controlled by
    our Skandhas. Thus, our new personality will be the sum and substance of the latest combination
    of our Skandhas at the end of our previous life and carried over to our new re-birth. And each
    succeeding incarnating personality will be correspondingly different.
    Neither will we ever reincarnate as animals, as some people love to speculate. The stream of
    life flows ever onward, forward and upward and never regresses. We have all been through the
    mineral, vegetable and animal phases of evolution before we ever reached the human stage on
    earth and we can be sure that karma is always ongoing, never acting in reverse, i.e., by sending
    us back to a previous stage of evolution. We should remember this when we come across human
    beings who act like animals--and there are many. Chances are that they are actually only one or
    two lifetimes removed from the animal kingdom and they have a lot yet to learn. When we see
    such people and are disgusted by their manner, it doesn’t hurt to remember that we were once at
    that stage, too. So be kind to them rather than resentful. It will help their karma and yours, too.
     
  2. AOSpare

    AOSpare Zos Kia Cultus

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    The “Desire” Factor in Karma


    The biggest determining factor of any new personality being born into any new lifetime will


    be the last desire of the previous personality at the moment of death. You might do well to read


    that again because it is a very weighty concept. This last Karmic impulse, more than anything


    else, influences and gives an overall direction to how our Skandhas will re-form for the next life.


    The most interesting thing about this very sacred moment is that it cannot be controlled


    intellectually. It is an entirely involuntary karmic action which is solely a product of one’s


    accumulated karma up to that point.


    In other words, if one’s most overwhelming desire at the moment of death is a desire for the


    reality of God as a Divine Principle, that will be reflected in that person’s karma in the next life.



    If one’s biggest desire is for the illusions of earthly life, that will also be reflected in the next life



    and will undoubtedly keep the person trapped in his own karmic revolving door.
    This last desire


    can’t be faked or consciously controlled. It is purely a product of, or lack of, one’s spiritual


    accumulations.


    Probably the most important thing about karma is that its purpose is not so much to punish


    as it is to teach. That’s why there is a special “plug-in” program in the Karmic Cosmic


    Mainframe which assures us that regardless of a very heavy load of negative karma, we will


    never get in our next life—or any new life for that matter—more than we are able to handle.


    That’s because nothing can be learned if one is so overloaded with negative karma that he can’t


    function. Knowing this, we can deduce that there is always a way out of even our most desperate


    situations and, karmically, we are obliged to find it. Thus we learn to grow.


    Quoted from Burt Wilson, my old teacher's book "Everything is Karma", I thought it is worth reading...sorry, if it is loo verbose, or preachy....
     
  3. Demi

    Demi Senior Registered

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    Thank you, very interesting. Does the author tell what to do about the bunches of accumulated karma one inevitably has hanging, especially if they had a lot of life times? I've heard this, someone told me there are two options! One is to "sow flowers on them" which means, I guess, to do the right thing from now on, and the other is "transcend" which means to meditate deeply, and at that point the "seeds are roasted" so they will not grow... in that pile. (Not the seeds of the flowers, but the seeds of karma from the past :) )
     
  4. AOSpare

    AOSpare Zos Kia Cultus

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    He did not say that meditation would lift or eliminate negative karmic account. Only that when a guru/disciple relationship forms the guru will take over the disciple's negative karma, at least to the level that a true guru/disciple relationship would have a chance to progress. (Beware of the false guru's thou...)
     
  5. tanguerra

    tanguerra Moderator Emeritus

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    Hi AOSpare


    What is your own view on all this? Do you have something personal to share? Quoting Hindu scriptures, or copying bits out of someone else's book, is not really in the spirit of the forum discussions.


    Personally I am rather skeptical of a lot of the dogma around karma and take it all with a big, fat grain of salt. This kind of thing leaves me rather cold. I think things like this just add to people's anxieties about death without actually adding a lot of spiritual value to people's lives.

    What is this belief system based upon? Which 'God' (however you conceive Her) are we referring to here? Who administers this system? Do atheists just have 'bad karma' for eternity? When did this law come into existence? Before the dinosaurs? After the flood?


    As you can probably tell, I'm not big on abdicating personal responsibility to a deity (or a guru) and I suspect that things are rather more random that most people are comfortable with.


    Personally I prefer to think that if you live as good a life as you can, you will tend to have a better time of it. You will make more friends, you will have better relationships, you will tend to be happier. Things will go wrong. That happens sometimes. That's life.


    If you decide to live a 'bad' life, that's up to you. You probably won't have a great time and you will most likely make lots of enemies. Perhaps after doing that a couple of dozen times you will eventually learn that behaving 'badly' is not a successful strategy. I don't think there's really any need to drag God (however you conceive her) into the process of micromanaging people's lives.
     
  6. AOSpare

    AOSpare Zos Kia Cultus

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    Tanguerra,


    Your quote talks about oneness with God. Who administers this? The Universe. Simply, ALL life's events have a cause/affect polarity, as you plainly stated yourself. In a sense, micromanagement is true because this applied to the smallest nuance of life. Hence the title of his book.


    "Everything is Karma". Nothing is random or by accident!


    In my opinion karma explains why we reincarnate, why the world exists as it is. Wars, why god does not heal the amputees, blah, blah, blah. Nothing else! In fact the other feel good explanations are half baked at best. So you see, my own belief system shares my former teacher's not to the letter but just say 95%. He is a genuine article and his teacher/guru was a healer and a teacher of the Mystery School, who did performed miracles as far as healing concerned. I am also skeptical of a lot of new agey stuff but his book (my quotation) is about to tell you certain tidbits and aspects of this matter (Karma/reincarnation) that you most certainly not find anywhere else. Not on this website nor on Amazon's burgeoning new age literature.
     
  7. Demi

    Demi Senior Registered

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    It is based on deep observations of thousands of ancient and less ancient monks and scholars who have dedicated their lives to find out how Nature and Natural Law functions, the structuring dynamics of our universe. And yes, you can call it micromanaging, such as everything is determined, and at the same time, everything is up to free will. It is because there are subtle levels in creation, where opposites can exist simultaneously, once they manifest into physicality we see them as one or the other, but human thought can transcend into the finer levels. Life actually unfolds from there.


    The Masters/scholars have it recorded in some of the scriptures, such as the Vedas. Wasn't just a fancy, but long term observations and experiences of many, many people. It is not that our civilization right now is the only intelligent one - there were wise people before us. And even they say this: "Karma is unfathomable". They also say that one should study it only if they can handle it. That is called the principle of dharma, your path in life. For some people studying scriptures will just confuse them, but for others, its the way to go.


    So Tanguerra, if discussing karma makes you uncomfortable, then it's completely OK, but you do not have the right to say others should not.
     
  8. Eowyn

    Eowyn Wrought out of steel

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    I am not interested in karma in the very least and I wasn't going to post anything here, but as I fear Tanguerra is going to be outnumbered, I'll just state my humble opinion...


    Which, in sum, is: the Law of Karma doesn't exist. And yes, you can embellish it with whatever words you like. You can try to explain it from a religious point of view, from a more "new agey" point of view, you can call it the Law of Action and Reaction, or the Law of Attraction which is more or less the same, you can say it is a question of "balance with the Universe", and you can even mingle it with quantum physics, but the truth is we don't have a single piece of evidence karma works as we have been told. We can't prove reincarnation, but we have lots of circumstancial evidence which points to its reality. I've been a few years reading and studying about karma, and I still have to find solid evidence for karma. I remember a few past lives, some very detailed, and I haven't found anything that could point there's a relation between my past lives (actions, thoughts, emotions) and my current life, beyond the fact there's a continuity, just like there's a continuity between what I was doing when I was 16 and the way I am now.


    It could as well my wisdom as a poor soul incarnated in a human being is much smaller than ancient humans who wrote the scriptures and believed the Sun and Stars were gods, but my opinion is that we just need to believe there are "Laws" ruling the Universe and our lives because that way we feel safer and sleep quietly all night long.

    If this is true, go ahead and give me a single example of one of these observations. I'm willing to find one, really.

    Yes, it sounds great, but I just don't understand it (maybe it's only me, I give you that). It sounds contradictory, and once more, not too practical. This also sounds very scientific, but then I don't know how scientists haven't claimed they have discovered the secret of life yet.
     
  9. Eowyn

    Eowyn Wrought out of steel

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    Karma is just a "wild card word" that seems to be valid for everything, at least that's what I've been observing lately. You need an explanation for the suffering in the world, karma! You need an explanation for the misfortunes in your life, karma! You want to know the reason why we reincarnate, karma! You can't get rid of the Wheel of Life until you are freed of your bad karma, whatever that means. You want to have a fantastic next life, do always good because that way you will have a good karma...


    Now we even have a "Karmic life disk" that gets reformatted in each life! Why call it karmic? I just call it "soul with memories that goes to the spiritual life and comes back in a new body with whatever memories I want to have close at hand depending on what I'm going to live". I feel "karmic" is just used to everything that relates to past lives. But it seems that if you use this word it is going to sound more serious or something...

    And who says we have to go towards perfection? Who is in the other side measuring my "level of perfection"? And once again, of course there's a link between the visible and invisible worlds, and between our "human" (I'd just call it physical) and psychic bodies, but why call it "karmic"? We are just complex entities with a physical and a psychic part, and it is obvious they are interconnected, but I just don't see what this has to do with karma. Do actions have consequences? Yes, that's all. No need to make a Law for it, among other things because actions (good or bad) sometimes have consequences... and sometimes not, though we also sleep better thinking "one day" (nobody knows when) our negative experiences and suffering will be worth, we don't call it punishment now, but it's "a way to grow". I somewhat agree with this as I don't believe in retributive karma, but anyway I keep wondering why we need "the Universe" to take account of our "negative and positive" karma.

    The only last desire of my previous personality was not getting too charred as I was seeing how my body fell into the ground in a helicopter crash. My new personality... well, I always say I'm burning on my inside and people say I'm cold, but I don't think this has anything to do with that.


    So, for me karma is just: words, words, words. But it is a belief so spread in the world of reincarnation that is almost taken for granted and nearly no one dares defy it. I prefer to have facts. But again, maybe it's only me.
     
  10. AOSpare

    AOSpare Zos Kia Cultus

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    This whole thing is to come to understanding and accepting that we are responsible for our ALL our actions/desires and fate. No need to capital punishment, or victims counselling because "we all get what's coming to us anyway" Sooner or later, if not in this lifetime, the next! Think about the myriads of new life situations we could potentially reborn into, what do you think governs that, a dice roll? A man in a white beard siting on a cloud? Your wish? (yeah, that's the funny one!)


    In my humble opinion discussing Reincarnation without accepting Karma is illogical, at best. It is your right but cherry picking belief systems is typical in the West but not self-serving.
     
  11. Eowyn

    Eowyn Wrought out of steel

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    Yes, this is obvious, but I've come to this conclusion just remembering past lives, not believing in theories that are not proved. The thing is people have to see it by themselves, through their own experiences, not by what a guru says.

    No, not a dice roll, but my own free will, maybe with the advice of more experienced souls, and of course knowing where I've come from and where I want to go (maybe it's just that what karma is). I don't know if with "your wish" you are referring to free will, in any case it's not whatever "wish" I have in mind when I'm dying, usually afraid, confused, and sad (or even in worse circumstances when it's a traumatic death), but my total conscious and well-thought wish when I feel ready to incarnate and I choose the main experiences in my next life... but not because I need to balance my evil deeds or pay any karmic debt, but just because I want to experience certain things, whatever the purpose I have in mind. I am also free not to reincarnate or to go in a holiday, even if I've killed dozens of people. I just don't see the need of karma anywhere.

    I have my own belief system (all based in my own experiences and other people's), and so far I think it has served me perfectly. I think we live in a world where old teachings (like the ones in Scriptures) are not useful anymore. Though we haven't changed much and certainly we've lost a great part of our spirituality, human beings are not the same than we were 5000 years ago. Ancient myths have to be destroyed and we have to base our knowledge in facts, not in "belief systems". Facts are quite abundant regarding reincarnation, even when most people out there just ignore them. In my opinion "belief systems" just hinder our spiritual evolution, they ease our minds and make us lazy, it's always easier to accept a "so-called law" just because someone apparently wiser says it's true, than to search for your own Truth.
     
  12. Demi

    Demi Senior Registered

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    Quote:


    Originally Posted by Demi


    It is based on deep observations of thousands of ancient and less ancient monks and scholars who have dedicated their lives to find out how Nature and Natural Law functions, the structuring dynamics of our universe.


    Quote Eowyn: If this is true, go ahead and give me a single example of one of these observations. I'm willing to find one, really.


    "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." (Newton's third law), and here is another "The same laws of nature apply in the entire Universe"


    Simply said, if you hit someone with a hammer and keep doing so, at some point they will get mad and they will hit you back. And if you throw it up in the air... then... bang. Does this sounds like uggabugga to you? Well, then you are up against the laws of nature which govern this planet. If you haven't experienced for yourself any of these "laws" yet, as you claim here, that means you haven't lived on Earth.


    Karma just means "action". Any action, throwing a ball included. And since some actions do not have an immediate reaction, because of the impossibility in time and space, and aren't immediately seen, some people will say those phenomena do not exist. They say they don't believe in "karma" (and they are free to believe whatever they want), but let me ask, what makes you think that we humans are somehow different, superior, whatever, to the whole rest of the way the world functions, and if you guys go throwing hammers up in the air, for sure they are not gonna fall back on your head, they are just gonna fly to the Moon and stay there, because "that's what you want to experience?" If you are really good throwers, you might throw the hammers so high that they appear to stay up on the Moon, in fact they are probably on the way back... :)


    OK you guys just don't believe that your actions are gonna come back to you sooner or later, (as I said, for me its totally obvious this is how the world functions, try robbing a bank tomorrow and see if you get locked up or what) BUT when it comes to karma from past lives it is harder to proof...


    I'll just share my own experience on this, as I remember several past lives, and I have seen many, many times how something good or bad comes back to me in this life. (But not all in one life, there is some amount of choice also) Once I was a Roman soldier, and I helped a refugee family whose village has burned down, I gave them half of my gold coins, and this life, people helped me when I did not have a place to live. Some other time someone had sentenced me to death by burning in medieval times (as a witch) and I saw the same soul get executed in a Nazi camp. He had been judged without guilt in that camp, just as he used to sentence innocent women. And yes, he had chosen that experience as a soul, to help him connect closer to God. It seems that we, from a deeper level when we are in soul state and actually CAN see the meaning of life, agree on some of our "karma" as the best way after all.


    And on that note, you question the purpose of life, which is the "growth to more and more happiness." Even if we oppose it, that is what all living beings are drawn towards. Just look around. Cheers wine**
     
  13. tanguerra

    tanguerra Moderator Emeritus

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    It doesn't make me uncomfortable Demi, and other people can talk about whatever they want. That's fine with me.


    I just don't agree with many of the things people have written about karma. I don't see it as a punishment (it just doesn't work that way in my view). I don't see it as an excuse not to help the unfortunate (because their suffering is somehow their own fault). I don't see it as a justification for society to be divided into 'castes'.


    I have serious doubts that 'the universe' is being managed by a 'God' (however you conceive her) who watches all our misdeeds and notes them down like some kind of cosmic Santa, even to the point of knowing if we were thinking of 'God' at the moment of our death, all in order to punish us like a giant (slightly mad) helicopter parent. I just think it's a fanciful notion that's all and I think ideas like this cause unnecessary anxiety and suffering. Not everything written down in a book, no matter how old, is accurate and to be trusted.


    As I said, I have issue with a lot of Hindu dogma, just as I have issues with the dogma of various other religions. This isn't to say that there isn't any truth in any of it. There no doubt are elements of truth in all of them.
     
  14. tanguerra

    tanguerra Moderator Emeritus

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    Actually my quote talks about carbon. It makes no mention of God (however you conceive her).
     
  15. tanguerra

    tanguerra Moderator Emeritus

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    Why does anything or anyone or anything have to 'govern' the universe at all? What if there is no 'government'. What if it is indeed, just a 'roll of the dice'? Maybe it's all just a weird dream I am having? Maybe it's a weird dream you are having? Maybe both? Maybe there no laws at all, except the ones we imagine ourselves being 'governed' by?


    What governs the ocean? Who decides when it's time for a wave to crash to the shore? There are so many possible permutations, surely that's not just a 'roll of the dice'? There are physical laws like gravity and heat and cold of course, that give these things the appearance of some kind of order, but that's just 'nature', not any kind of decision making process going on.


    If you want to call 'nature' a foreign word, like 'karma' to make it sound more mysterious, that's fine. If you want to call 'nature' God (however you conceive her) and say that she moves in mysterious ways, to make it sound important and mystical, that's fine too. But renaming something that already exists with a foreign word doesn't make it a new thing.


    It's just not the way I see things working, that's all. I see a universe that is far more chaotic and less controlled than most people envisage I guess.
     
  16. AOSpare

    AOSpare Zos Kia Cultus

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    tanguerra,


    Look at nature, in my eyes it is not chaotic, it is in perfect order. The apple seed will not yield a coconut tree. While you see the Ocean as chaotic and random, I see it as in order - nature's order. We are slowly killing this planet and we shall reap Nature's law. We pollute the Ocean that will also come back to us. But let us look at reincarnation. All those untouchables in India - who is the "lucky" soul to reincarnate into the 200,000 born perhaps by the time you read this post.


    Ever ask yourself this question, or is it too unpleasant? I am sorry, but those people will be born and if you believe in reincarnation, you also must question why!


    Anyways, I bet some naysayers (not you) might have some skeletons in the closet :) , so I am not posting anymore as it is a waste of my time. Enough said. Good luck in believing in "heaven" only but ignoring "Hell"!
     
  17. tanguerra

    tanguerra Moderator Emeritus

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    Yes. This is how most people describe the experience. I have read a lot of different accounts of this process both here on the forum and in various books and most people describe it this way.
     
  18. Eowyn

    Eowyn Wrought out of steel

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    The same laws of nature apply in the entire Universe? Well, who says this? Has he been in the entire Universe? As far as I know, there are people who have been in the astral realm (me included), and there are also people who have been in a place between lives, and I can assure you mechanistic Laws don't work there.


    Like I said your actions have consequences... sometimes, but it doesn't happen ALWAYS. A Law is a Law when it always happens and it can be predicted, just like the Archimedes Law. The rest are just hypothesis.


    Yes, I've been in this Earth. I've done good things and quite evil things, and I don't see any relation between them, they're just different experiences from which I learned or not, if there is a cause and effect relation it still has to be proved. But of course, you will sleep better thinking I'll pay for my sins one day, and if I condemned someone to death, I will also be executed sooner or later. That's just a human point of view, in my opinion completely unacceptable from the spirit point of view, and even more if you believe in a God.

    I'm tired of hearing the same words, yes, I know them by heart too.

    Well, I don't know in yours, but in my country we have hundreds of robbers who are happily living in their homes when they should be in jail, mostly politicians. Is karma not working here? Or maybe are they being rewarded for their good deeds in other lives?


    Karma from past lives is not harder to prove, it's just impossible to prove, and that's why it will keep being a mere belief. That's what I understand from your experience. Everyone in this planet is going to have good and bad experiences at some point, it's just a matter of statistics. When I started to remember past lives I was tempted to think karma was the reason behind being murdered or enslaved... but when you start to remember dozens of lives you realize it's not that easy, there's not a direct correlation between experiences. We could even talk about how much we choose them... But I understand it's easier for us to believe there's a reason for all our suffering.
     
  19. Eowyn

    Eowyn Wrought out of steel

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    I'm not questioning the purpose of life, I'm just saying the purpose is my choice. I can spend all my life idle, contemplating the sky... or am I breaking any Law if I do so? And well, I look around and I see people addicted to all kind of drugs and silly entertaining TV shows. So, yes, maybe you're right and they're just looking for happiness... surely they're are happier in ignorance than me, now that I'm aware I am an ever growing soul...

    Yes, I agree with this.
     
  20. Demi

    Demi Senior Registered

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    Quote: Eowyn. As far as I know, there are people who have been in the astral realm (me included), and there are also people who have been in a place between lives, and I can assure you mechanistic Laws don't work there.


    But now you are here :)


    quote: "But of course, you will sleep better thinking I'll pay for my sins one day, and if I condemned someone to death, I will also be executed sooner or later."


    The only thing that affects my sleep is coffee :)


    "I'm tired of hearing the same words, yes, I know them by heart too."


    Tired, so maybe you need get some sleep? lol


    "Well, I don't know in yours, but in my country we have hundreds of robbers who are happily living in their homes when they should be in jail, mostly politicians. Is karma not working here?"


    It's probably working just fine, but the results do not manifest immediately like modern folk in the quick-food civilization would be pleased to see it. We are not done with this planet yet.


    "Karma from past lives is not harder to prove, it's just impossible to prove, and that's why it will keep being a mere belief."


    You cannot prove it exists, equally, you cannot prove that it doesn't.


    A dog cannot see colors... does not mean colors do not exist. Knowledge is different in different states of consciousness. That means reality is experienced completely different for different people depending on the amount of impressions in their nervous system. The hardest thing for some people is to realize that they are right, but the opposite is also right, truth depends on the eyes only. And the fact that it CHANGES.


    And whatever you karma deniers are saying is not actually in conflict with the belief, or existence of karma, because karma can actually function parallel to your belief, and at this point, you are not going to experience it, because you simply don't wanna, and that's your choice, but you aren't God any more than me, to tell me what to believe. I'm going by what is reality for me.


    But anyway, I got the point that there are some out there who do not believe in karma, and no one forces you, and I think this thread was meant for those who do believe to chit chat about karma among ourselves as we have the right to believe anything we want, as much as you have the right to not believe it. Sorry you cannot force your belief unto us, and we cannot force our beliefs unto you, and there are obviously two different camps, neither of which can be "proved" by so called science.
     

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