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Alternative View of Reincarnation

J

James Palmer

New Member
Life after death exists as global phenomenon, but my life ends when entropy of the system of atoms forming my body is subject to a drastic rise. Life is an emergent property of complex systems and goes away if the opposite process to emergence takes place (collapse of complexity). Of course some information of my existence will survive for some time in a similar way as paleontological traces of past life are still visible. Hopefully it will be possible in the future to clone our minds but it is rather a kind of science fiction as this cloning will be never perfect due to possible quantum processes in our minds, impossible to reproduce. There is also another possibility that if the concept of an eternally inflating multiverse is correct, sooner or later a duplicate of myself will be realised somewhere else. Life after (my) death is impossible because my conscious experience will be deleted from existence when I die as there is no way for the information stored in my consciousness to persist after I die. An exact copy of my consciousness may randomly be created from scratch with new material by coincidence in some future universe after I die. After so many big bangs and repetitions are inevitable with an infinite number of big bangs as the infinite multiverse predicts because there are only a finite number of ways that the laws of physics can be different and there is also only a finite number of ways matter can arrange itself like candy crush if you carried on playing forever eventually repetitions of the same game will repeat the same principle applies to the multiverse. Over the course of eternity your exact life you have lived so far and every possible variation of your life will be lived by other exact copies of you elsewhere in the multiverse. But I know it's pointless to think about because the current me has already ceased to exist after I die. This is certainly your only life you will get of yourself. So make the most of it. Reincarnation is most definitely fantasy in in the laws of physics as we know it. I would like reincarnation to be true. Sadly you don't always get what you want or would like to be true. Memories are just configurations of particles in your head making you think that something has happened and birthmarks or birth defects are just configurations of particles on your skin so it is most certainly a coincidence. NDEs is when the brain hallucinates itself when it is nearly dead and where there is not enough oxygen getting to the brain. It is nothing more than the brain going haywire. All of your chemical and electrical energy will eventually get converted to heat energy which is the most disordered form of energy, not your conscious or spirit energy thus all energy it is irrespective of what type of energy it is and regardless if it has came from a living thing or a non living thing will eventually be converted to heat energy. Entropy of disorderliness of the universe must always increase with time this has something to do with the second law of thermodynamics. Any new particle, force or energy that would be strong enough to affect what the atoms are doing in your brain and consciousness we would of already detected in experiments such as the Large Hadron collider and any new particle, force or energy that we haven't detected yet would be so weak that it would have no affect on what the atoms are doing in your brain and consciousness. If there was more than 3 spatial dimensions atoms and orbits would not be stable with more than 1 time dimension physics loses all of it's power and there would be no point in an evolving brain or consciousness For life after death to be POSSIBLE our understanding of the laws of physics would completely have to change and the infinite multiverse theory would have to be completely disproven and wrong. Reincarnation is most probably impossible and most certainly impossible if our understanding of laws of physics never change or the infinite multiverse theory is proven correct. Don't hope on living again and coming back as someone else because it is extremely unlikely to be true. you need to get over it and try to make the most of this life because it is most probably your only chance. Extremely sorry if I have upset anybody and that was not my intention. My intention is telling people try to make the most of this life. If you knew you only had 1 live you would value it more and make the most of it more. I hated what I said but people need to hear the very cold hard truth and it is what you deal with the truth. I used to believe in reincarnation and I used to waste more opportunities but now I'm a hard atheist I try to make the most of life more and not waste opportunities because I know this is my only chance. I know our lives are not dress rehearsals and this is it. I know it forces me to value my life even more and I want everybody else to do the same.
1 have 2 videos here explaining it here
is our universe part of a multiverse video here
is there life after death? 20 minute video here
 
Hi James:

Here is an interesting take on the matter from the author of an article in Scientific American:

I’d be happy to say it’s all complete and utter nonsense—a moldering cesspool of irredeemable, anti-scientific drivel. The trouble is, it’s not entirely apparent to me that it is. So why aren’t scientists taking Stevenson’s data more seriously? The data don’t “fit” our working model of materialistic brain science, surely. But does our refusal to even look at his findings, let alone to debate them, come down to our fear of being wrong? “The wish not to believe,” Stevenson once said, “can influence as strongly as the wish to believe.”

https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...e-we-e28098skepticse28099-really-just-cynics/

And another takedown of the materialist paradigm:

https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/8/8/155/htm

The point is that there is no limit to the back-and-forth possible on this issue. Having come from a scientific background and having spent long years dallying in the arid land of materialistic twaddle, I find it difficult to be impressed by this kind of thing.

Cordially,
S&S
 
Hi James Palmer.... You are absolutely right ...we all die never to return.... we know there is no such thing as physical incarnation ... so much of what you said is what most of us already know

On the other hand you are confused

If you have no belief there is a spiritual side to you that goes on and on .. then I challenge you from tonight on and every night from now on as you lie in bed before you go to sleep to say the following to yourself even if you don't believe there is no spiritual side to you

"I renounce you the spiritual me... go away I want nothing to do with you"

When you do that every night from tonight onwards and mean it ... you are doing two things... firstly you are putting complete faith and trust in your scientific beliefs... secondly you will drive your spiritual self away ending everything for you when your physical body dies ... If you are not sure you will reject doing this for various reasons .. all of which will appear valid to you.. that will be the real test for you
you can't have it both ways .. you either accept or reject your spiritual side .. make it clear what you want... if you don't believe you have a spiritual side to your being then this will be easy for you

Make no mistake its a big deal rejecting the spiritual side of your being.. it's permanent and cannot be retrieved

Science knows nothing in comparisons to what it doesn't know so be very careful in what you believe in and what you will do

All The Best
 
Just read my post again .... Made a typing error should have been "there is no such thing as physical reincarnation.".. not.." physical incarnation". That's very important to understand when making claims about previous life memories for example... your spiritual self occupied a physical entity named Billy The Kid ... you the physical entity in this physical life was never Billy The Kid... Billy The Kid died never to return.... for your spiritual self ..Billy The Kid was another physical entity he occupied just as he does with you the current physical entity
 
There and back again said:
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Many thanks for sharing! Have you read an "Alien Interview" by Lawrence Spencer? You can find it for free in PDF format on google. The read is an account of the 1947 downed UFO Roswell incident. The recovered alien communicates with an Army nurse and makes the statements: this planet has "soul trap" devices that are a remnant of the "Old Empire". Between lives our memories are wiped clean. There is no "spiritual learning" here. We are essentially on a prison planet. The alien also mentioned that the nuclear devices/tests of the 1940/50s caught their attention. They don't want this planet's resources (gold maybe?) rendered unusable by radiation.
 
James Palmer said:
I used to believe in reincarnation and I used to waste more opportunities but now I'm a hard atheist I try to make the most of life more and not waste opportunities because I know this is my only chance.
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Hi James,

I found your above statement amusing because it reminded me of my life in reverse. I was a hard atheist, who is now a believer in reincarnation, with understanding of my past lives.

Even in reincarnation based religions like Hinduism, Buddhism and Sikhism, the remembrance of death at all times is encouraged as a spiritual practice, as this enables one to live life intensely and to the fullest.

Reincarnation is not a recipe for lethargy or passivity. The Bhagavad Gita teaches reincarnation in the middle of the battlefield, arousing Arjuna suffering from panic and paralysing anxiety to energetic fulfilment of his duties.

I find that the principle of reincarnation to have removed my fears of death, as well as death of loved ones. This brought a lot of calm and peace in my life, and vital mental equanimity to my mind.

I am more relaxed and better able to enjoy life as a consequence. In fact, it is painful for me to watch non-believers in reincarnation being emotionally tortured by loss of loved ones or even death, as I feel it is a lot of unnecessary suffering one is subjecting oneself to. Some are just tortured by imaginary fears and make their lives miserable.

Yes, it is important to process grief and give oneself time to do so, but the principle of reincarnation can act as a balm for those who are psychologically distressed, knowing that oneself or one's loved ones are just leaving a temporary body for a new one, and that love is of an eternal nature.
 
If the concept of an eternally inflating multiverse is correct, then sooner or later an exact copy of yourself will be realised somewhere else (an exact copy of your consciousness and soul will randomly be created from scratch with new material by coincidence in some future universe). An exact copy of you would be identical in everyway right down to the last atom and molecule. They have an exact copy of your consciousness and soul, and exactly the same brain and neuron complexity as your brain and neuron complexity. They possess the same properties and functions as you have now that make you alive. Your exact life you have lived so far and every other possible variation of your life is already being lived by other exact copies of you right now and will be lived by other exact copies of you in the eternally inflating multiverse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eaBPc_fLVs Life after (your) death is impossible as there is no way for the information stored in your consciousness and soul to persist after you die. When you die you will cease to be self aware and your (current) consciousness and soul will cease to exist. Your atoms and energies of you will still be there with your dead body, but your consciousness, soul and your body will no longer function. Imagine your consciousness and soul as a string of fairy lights, if you cut the wire of the lights when the lights are on (DO NOT do this because otherwise you will be electrocuted) the lights do NOT go anywhere, they simply stop and that is what happens when we die. Your atoms and molecules will no longer function and your mind will become inactive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ8vkQ0ZmDM Cosmic inflation is where our universe expanded so rapidly for a very brief moment of time at the big bang. Inflation only ended in our part of space (our bubble universe) while other regions are still inflating. Once inflation starts, it never ends producing an infinite number of bubble universes and each bubble universe has it's own big bang. There are big bangs happening all of the time with new big bangs occurring forever. There are only a finite number of ways that the laws of physics can be different and there is also only a finite number of ways matter can arrange itself and with an infinite number of big bangs repetitions of everything are inevitable.
and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtlWS9TaCnQ If there were more than 3 spatial dimensions there would be no stable atoms or solar systems and if there were more than 1 time dimension physics loses its power and there would be no point in an evolving brain. Consciousness is a certain pattern of arrangement of atoms and electrons, consciousness is how information feels while it is being processed and consciousness is something physical that feels non physical. Memories are just a certain configuration of particles in a person's brain making them think something has happened and birthmarks/birth defects are just a certain configuration of particles on a person's skin. NDEs are just the brain going haywire as there is not enough oxygen getting to the brain.
 
@James Palmer With respect, your post contains many unsubstantiated assertions. For example,
Life after (your) death is impossible as there is no way for the information stored in your consciousness and soul to persist after you die.
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This is a kind of popular mythology which you promote here. It has several problems. One is the abundant evidence of survival after death (and indeed before birth). Simply asserting it is impossible does not make it so, any more than for example saying that travel at faster than the speed of sound is impossible. A second and deeper problem with your claim is the implicit assumption that the nature of consciousness is understood. Just what is the relationship between consciousness and the material world such as the brain? While there are some obvious correlations, there is no-one who has any idea of how it is possible for matter in and of itself to be conscious. Thus your conclusions rest upon some imaginary belief that these things are known and understood when in fact they represent one of the hardest unsolved problems. Ever heard of the 'hard problem of consciousness'?

NDEs are just the brain going haywire as there is not enough oxygen getting to the brain.
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Sadly this is simply disinformation and a generous assessment would be that it shows a lack of study or research of the facts. The NDE state typically involves a clearer and more alert state of consciousness, often described as realer than real. It also often involves the obtaining of accurate and verifiable knowledge of things in the outside world, far beyond anything which could be acquired by the ordinary physical senses.

Seriously James, I recommend that you do some research and find out about these matters.
 
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Hi Speedwell,

It is interesting that James brings up the idea of the Multiverse, though I have to admit that I haven't watched the posted video. Nonetheless, I am familiar with the idea of the multiverse (it has been bouncing around in the sci fi realm for a long time). What many may not realize is that the whole idea of a multiverse as a serious theory in physics owes a lot to the anthropic and "fine tuning" issues found in the universe as it stands. In short, not only life, but the observable universe owes its existence to the happy and seemingly infinitely improbable combination of factors and precise values for universal constants that would--if randomly selected--not have amounted to anything. :eek: So, our universe and our existence seem to be the beneficiary of more than extraordinary "good luck" in such an extreme that it seemed like a creator of some type might be necessary to account for it. :cool: Oh, HORRORS!!!! :rolleyes: This was, obviously, an unacceptable conclusion to the current "powers that be". :( One of the ways of avoiding the implications of the anthropic principle and fine tuning issues was to hypothesize an infinite number of universes, with us JUST HAPPENING TO BE in the one that was "juuuuuuuuuuuust right"!!!!! :) After all, where else could we be as this was probably the only one suitable for life, etc. o_O

But as long as one is going to throw around infinite numbers of universes, why not also have an infinite number of the kind we can live in so that we can also have not just one, but an infinite number like ours???!!!! ;) Hence, if you are an MCU fan, you can "have your cake and eat it too"!!! :D Oh, joy. :confused:

Anyhow, for anyone who is interested in these issues, you can find out more about the underlying debates in these fairly wishy-washy articles on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_universe

Cordially,
S&S
 
First an apology to @melon04. This thread has wandered far away from your original topic. I think some of these posts should be moved to a separate thread.

Hi @SeaAndSky, your comments on the multiverse remind me of a series of programmes on UK tv presented by Prof Brian Cox. It was some time ago, but the overall theme was to cover different aspects of how science applied to planet Earth and its place in the universe, and the existence of life on this planet. Each time, he explained just how everything fitted together, in remarkable ways. The universe seemed to him a wonderful place. As the series went on and different aspects were covered, improbability built upon improbability, the whole vast scheme taken together was amazing. As the final episode came, I was looking forward to some sort of conclusion on how all this came to be. He had painted himself into a corner, the only possible conclusion was that everything had been the work of some inconceivably brilliant intelligent and creative force - that is to say, what could be described as God. At the last moment, like a magician pulling away a cloth and showing that he's made something disappear, the professor announced that the only possible explanation was - that this was just one of a perhaps infinite number of universes, and was not special at all, it was just ordinary and mundane.

There seemed something bizarre about that conclusion. He had clearly been captivated by the wonders which he described, he was truly in awe of them. To declare at the end that it was all just mundane and ordinary seemed like an act of mental contortion which effectively pulled the rug from beneath everything which had gone before.

Personally I don't pay any heed to ideas of a multiverse, it is a fiction, not evidence based. Rather like dark matter and dark energy, which seemingly comprise the vast proportion of the known universe. Yet they only exist as a mathematical fiction, something included in the equations to try to get them to balance. A bit like an accountant struggling to get the financial books to balance, when finding a discrepancy. The discrepancy discovered by the accountant is not just a few pennies, something which might have slipped through a gap in the floorboards, but a vast quantity, many times greater than all of the existing finances. Some of the directions of modern abstract thinking in physics are certainly imaginative and creative. But they seem to be attempts to patch up something which is so badly broken that they are unable to just say so.
 
Speedwell said:
First an apology to @melon04.....
Personally I don't pay any heed to ideas of a multiverse, it is a fiction, not evidence based. Rather like dark matter and dark energy, which seemingly comprise the vast proportion of the known universe. Yet they only exist as a mathematical fiction, something included in the equations to try to get them to balance. A bit like an accountant struggling to get the financial books to balance, when finding a discrepancy. The discrepancy discovered by the accountant is not just a few pennies, something which might have slipped through a gap in the floorboards, but a vast quantity, many times greater than all of the existing finances. Some of the directions of modern abstract thinking in physics are certainly imaginative and creative. But they seem to be attempts to patch up something which is so badly broken that they are unable to just say so.
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I think it all began with path integrals - just a mathematical trick nobody should take too seriously.

Multiverse is a fiction - maybe beautiful for some people, especially for those who can not and would not control their fantasies. Worse with dark matter/energy. Not a single experimental confirmation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_integral_formulation
 
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Hi Cyrus/Speedwell,

I have to admit that I know absolutely nothing about Path integral formulation. So, I'm taking my cue from Cyrus on that one, but I'm going to try and plow through the Wiki article and see if I can enlighten myself.

I also should say that I am not totally convinced that Dark Energy and Dark Matter are bogus, but until their proponents come up with better proof of their existence in a theoretical framework that could provide a basis for explaining their existence along with regular matter and energy, they remain nothing more than a place holder to explain why their equations don't work on cosmic scales. I.e., a "fudge factor" IMO.

The same is actually true to a certain extent for me in terms of the multiverse idea. I am not all that opposed to the idea of multiple universes in the spiritual sense. But, it seems to me that we've already got plenty of "physical" room in the physical universe we already know about. So, I can't see the reason to posit additional physical universes other than as an intellectual exercise or to hide or obscure the obvious (as seems to be the case with the Cox presentation).

However, the idea of parallel universes or non-physical locales of some type seems to go along with the ideas of additional "dimensions" or "planes of existence" in the spiritual or esoteric sense. (I.e., the planes of existence in NDE and between lives reports). But these, once again, are part of an ordered system of universes and/or just non-physical aspects of the universe we already know about.

However, I am opposed to this concept just being seized upon as another "fudge factor" to avoid the obvious implications of the fine tuning and anthropic issue in the observable physical universe. An appeal to a completely unknowable and un-provable infinity of physical universes in order to avoid the obvious implications of the type of fine tuning, etc. that has been discovered to exist in our current physical universe is nothing more than intellectual and spiritual cowardice IMO. It is a blatant attempt to avoid the obvious by turning away and pretending that it is not there. It is far worse than personal stupidity, as it foists that stupidity on others and obscures the truth from many who might otherwise find it.

Cordially,
S&S
 
Hi Speedwell,

In terms of your idea about moving some recent posts off of Melon's thread due to subject matter conflict, it seems to me that James Palmer's post above (#34) and the posts in response thereto could just be moved over to Palmer's original thread: Alternate View of Reincarnation. That seems like a more sensible location for these subjects and related debates, and will free up Melon's thread for her stuff.

Cordially,
S&S
 
Eric Parkes said:
Many thanks for sharing! Have you read an "Alien Interview" by Lawrence Spencer? You can find it for free in PDF format on google. The read is an account of the 1947 downed UFO Roswell incident. The recovered alien communicates with an Army nurse and makes the statements: this planet has "soul trap" devices that are a remnant of the "Old Empire". Between lives our memories are wiped clean. There is no "spiritual learning" here. We are essentially on a prison planet. The alien also mentioned that the nuclear devices/tests of the 1940/50s caught their attention. They don't want this planet's resources (gold maybe?) rendered unusable by radiation.
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Yea the old soul trap that has been around on a multitude of other worlds but primarily in such places as Orion where for a time was exceedingly difficult for souls to escape. The grays themselves use something similar with their own as well other populations under their control for which is why ETs are weary of Earth for this reasons for which many have ended up here themselves. The real resource isn't gold but souls and the living as well the location of this world in relation to other star systems.
 
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