Are there any verified past life accounts?

Discussion in 'SCIENTIFIC and ANECDOTAL research' started by OrdinaryBummer, Jul 21, 2018.

  1. OrdinaryBummer

    OrdinaryBummer New Member

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    Hello, all.

    As much as I search for verified personal past life accounts, I cannot find any reliable ones (only people who say "yes, there are such accounts" - but no further evidence provided).

    Are you aware of such accounts?

    To me, this would constitute one of the strongest evidence possible for reincarnation, the other being blind and controlled past-life regressions of close people who recount identical facts of a previous shared life.

    I'm sorry if such a thread exists already.

    Looking forward to your replies!
     
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  2. SeekerOfKnowledge

    SeekerOfKnowledge Learner

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    Hello OrdinaryBummer,

    welcome to the forum.

    You probably mean cases of adult people? Because there are children's cases in abundance.

    I have read of one woman lately who sent information about her memories to other people (via email, I think, so that it was time-stamped) before she began research and validated her memories so that she has witnesses. Unfortunately, I have forgotten her name.
     
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  3. OrdinaryBummer

    OrdinaryBummer New Member

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    Hello, SeekerOfKnowledge.

    Thank you for your reply!

    Yes, I mean exactly that - cases of adult people - preferably common, ordinary folk who are just interested in the matter - not people who are seeking to gain something out of claiming to have found evidence of a previous life.

    I find it weird that thousands of people have gone through past life regression and have experienced what seems to be a past life taking place in the previous century, yet cannot find or are not willing to search for any confirmatory evidence.

    Unless such is found, a far more likely and valid explanation would be that this is just the doing of our overly creative and imaginative mind.
     
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  4. SeekerOfKnowledge

    SeekerOfKnowledge Learner

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    Found the name back in the FAQ section of this forum.
    The case of Angela Grubbs I would consider to be a verified one.
     
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  5. Speedwell

    Speedwell Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    How about the case of Robert Snow. He underwent a regression as a way to demonstrate that the whole thing was a nonsense. In the process of investigation, he found the opposite.

    There are a number of resources available such as on youtube,


    and a number of other videos or interviews too.

    Or his own book, entitled "Looking for Carroll Beckwith", "The True Stories of a Detective's Search for His Past".


    Edit
    : another, more recent book by the same author, about this case:
    Portrait of a Past-Life Skeptic: The True Story of a Police Detective's Reincarnation
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2018
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  6. OrdinaryBummer

    OrdinaryBummer New Member

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    Thank you for the resources, I will look into them :)
     
  7. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Emeritus

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    I found Jenny's journey to be quite believable. Here is a video, the sound isn't the best - there are other videos, but this was one I found that had her "then" son in it.
     
  8. ssake

    ssake Senior Registered

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    I found this thread because my website stats indicate that four people have hit my site, coming from here. Presumably, they are viewing information on Angela Grubbs. She was a member of this forum many years ago, and as she happened to live in Atlanta where I was at the time, I arranged to meet her and to shoot a video interview with her. I am still in touch with her via Facebook. I note that Capt. Robert Snow is mentioned here, as well. I audiotaped one of the first, if not the first, interview with him, when I was working on my documentary, "In Another Life: Reincarnation in America," which also features Carol Bowman. (I couldn't afford to fly to Indianapolis, and hence couldn't include him in the documentary.)

    In 2005, I became aware of a past life of my own, and for 10 years, from 2009 until 2019, I researched it carefully, using as my research model the methods used by Dr. Stevenson, Capt. Snow and Angela (who is a research attorney). I would say that it is proven as genuine, beyond any reasonable doubt. Unfortunately or fortunately as the case may be, while the past-life personality himself is very obscure, historically, some of his literary works, having been plagiarized or mis-attributed, are quite famous, and this makes me look flaky. All I can say is that to be rigorous, one must report the good, the bad and the seemingly ridiculous. I think at this point my website, having been trimmed and organized recently, is self-explanatory.

    Regarding my personal credibility, today I will be speaking to the Brunswick Jungian Center. Twenty psychiatrists and others interested in Jungian theory are paying $10-$15 to hear me speak--so presumably they are taking me (and my case) seriously.
    http://www.ial.goldthread.com
     
  9. Native Son

    Native Son Senior Member

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    Welcome back! How can you tell that 4 people from this site are those same people hitting your site? Are you stalking them? I'm just kidding, of course!

    I once found your site long ago, and by mere accident, as I can best tell. While perusing the various pages there, I found some interest in it, but only because it made me aware that you claim to be in communication with one of your 3 wives of your claimed past life as the brother of a well known American poet, John G. Whittier. What I found interesting is this. You claim that, mainly, music and movies are the subjects by which your wife, who is currently in the astral world, sends you thought bursts, and somehow, replies to your questions by directing you to play certain songs, where either the title or the lyrics confirm to you that those perceived communications from her are genuine, and not part of your imagination. And the same process is also used with films. And I assume you also utilize literature, etc. Supposedly, from what I gathered from what you post on your site, you and your astral wife also play another game which is entertaining. In this game, you think of something in particular, like a particular word, or a specific theme, to which your astral wife provides the proof that she is real and is really communicating with you, by having you open up, at random, to a page in a book, or magazine, or something like it, and there you find that word or theme in the very page you opened at random, and this is the self-confirmation that indeed, you are communicating with the astral/spirit world. Adding here that you also play/played the game with a group of musical CD's in your possession, where instead of opening a book at random, here you would be prompted to select a particular CD and then further prompted to select a particular track on it, as prompted by your astral wife, which, again, would be self-corroboration that you were really in contact, and not just imagining it. And as crazy as that may sound to others, I was really impressed by it, because that was something I thought I was also doing with a dead uncle, who was rather special to me when he was alive, and who was always giving me advice when alive. However, apart from discovering that I was not alone in utilizing the methods, I was never at the point of being really convinced that it was really happening, and perhaps my imagination was running away with me because it was just coincidences, and wishful thinking on my part. With me, it was never 100% accurate, because the process was not infallible. There were many instances where I failed to find that word, or that theme, or that particular musical song to corroborate what I thought I was being communicated by my "astral" uncle. And in those many cases, wanting it to real, I would go for best out of 3, best out of five, best out of seven, and so on. And in those particular cases of failure, I would come to my senses and realize that my love for wanting to still be in contact with an uncle that was no longer there was stronger than common sense. I would find any and all excuses for myself to explain the failures. I don't know about you, but with the help of my friends and family, I finally accepted that my dead uncle's soul was not attempting to communicate with me, although I still think about it, and wish it so with all my heart, mind, and soul. Now, I would find it personally interesting to further discuss this with you, and also put it to the test. Perhaps a successful test would revive my own wish for success with my uncle.

    If such a test fails, I would recommend that you should carefully, and with a very wide open mind, consider all the constructive criticism being thrown your way by your friends, family, and above all, the experts who made time to address your case, rather than criticize and demean them for simply refusing to believe you and your self-evaluation of what is objective proof beyond a shadow of a doubt. I believe that you should provide a platform on your site, where even those few and rare visitors to your site can hold discussions on the material you present there. Perhaps, eventually, you may allow a little outside light to trickle in.

    Again, I'm just being as honest as I can be, under the circumstances, and place. And I don't mean, as I stated before, to disparage your case. If it is your intention, based on some perceived mission you and your astral wife are on, with the permission of the high astral council, you yourself clearly state that it is failing terribly, therefore it may just be something that you have imagined, if the astral world is as powerful as you make it out to be, and still fail. Then again, if your intention is to just be one of the many here, who wants to share their personal perceived past lives, I for one am all ears.

    Finally, since you do have a great amount of material of your past life on your site, I was wondering if you would mind if anyone could use it here, for discussion. And further, would you be hostile to anyone providing constructive criticism on any of the material from your site? What I mean is, are you willing to discuss your past life, claimed, objective evidence with us here, and not get terribly upset if one or more of us does not agree with any aspect of the proof being objective, or if we doubt and point out as to where and why the proof is not beyond a shadow of a doubt? After all, if you are really meaning to convince the skeptical world about the truth/reality of reincarnation, would it not be proper to first convince us of your personal case, who are already staunch believers of reincarnation? I firmly believe that the astral world is truly our home, and we just visit this universal place of the physical senses, our ever changing playground.

    I will endeavour to explain to you in what way the mortal differs from the immortal creature. The soul in her totality has the care of inanimate being everywhere, and traverses the whole heaven in divers forms appearing–when perfect and fully winged she soars upward, and orders the whole world; whereas the imperfect soul, losing her wings and drooping in her flight at last settles on the solid ground–there, finding a home, she receives an earthly frame which appears to be self-moved, but is really moved by her power; and this composition of soul and body is called a living and mortal creature. For immortal no such union can be reasonably believed to be; although fancy, not having seen nor surely known the nature of God, may imagine an immortal creature having both a body and also a soul which are united throughout all time. Plato's Phaedrus

    Right, I'm right where I belong
    I find myself returning home
    And all along, I guess I've known
    I was born to be the native son
    Falcon glide to meet the morning ray of sunlight
    Take me home
    For on your wings, my dreams are born
    Returning from a foreign land
    Once I believed that fame and fortune
    Would have to become my destiny
    So I sail away
    For brighter days
    And here I am
    Where I began
    Right, I'm right where I belong
    At last I finally found my home
    And here and now, I see I'm born
    Born to be the native son
    Born to be the native son.

    Respectfully,

    Native Son

     
  10. Totoro

    Totoro Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Why do you find it odd that someone can't find any evidence of living a life in the past? Do you mean that it's strange that someone can't find a specific name of their past life?

    What we encourage on the forum and what I agree with, is being able to find evidence of something that you wouldn't have known normally and it's even better if it's something that's less publicly known as well. Names are going to be very hard to verify, since record keeping hasn't always been accurate and records get lost and damaged. But a name won't do it, you'll also need photographic and biographical data as well, which are also all hard to come by.

    So again, the key to me is being able to find evidence in the form of something historical that you can validate your memory with, such as a style of house, a toy, words spoken and so on. I think that a lot of people that put the effort into having a regression or doing one themselves do attempt research. I think the forum is full of many such people, but a lot of the evidence is circumstantial. But that doesn't diminish the validity at all.

    I've done exhaustive historical research and been able to validate many things between two lives, including names, dates of birth, photos and so on. That's rare though because they were high profile lives so to speak. For the "average" person, as you were saying, they don't get much further than saying that they may have been a bar owner or carpenter in such and such a time. That doesn't make their memories less valid, just less verifiable and I think that's an overwhelmingly large amount of cases that are out there.

    As ssake was saying about himself, I've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt off the validity of my cases. In contrast though, I've only been posting here for the last ten years about them anonymously. I want nothing other than the satisfaction in knowing that I've given people the validity in their own knowing what they've experienced is real.

    Verified cases are out there, but sadly, for most of the world at large, they fall into the "tales of the weird" kind of stuff, because most of us live in western cultures that don't believe in or accept reincarnation as a real thing. It's simply not part of our cultural or religious practices.
     
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  11. Native Son

    Native Son Senior Member

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    I like what you posted, but I have quoted only the portion that I cannot agree with. Western cultures are basically an outgrow of the Mediterranean cultures. And linking below is just an example, as it shows that the foundation of western culture was well into the belief of the soul, and the reincarnations it goes through. And surely Plato, academically speaking, along with his pupil Aristotle were the base on which western thought was built on. The base was deep with reincarnation, but as time passed reincarnation was forgotten, due to some faulty thinking/reasoning interpretations of a few influential early fathers of Christianity, unfortunately. The concept of the soul was still valid but, as before, the body was placed as coming before the soul, and to which eternal life was granted to the body only upon a single life trial of the body. Therefore the belief of life after death has been, generally, accepted by western cultures and western religions all along. In the largest western religion, Christianity, it differs only in the current general belief of a single incarnation, rather than multiple ones, based on the accepted religious Christian literature, which uses Jesus' single incarnation, and single resurrection from the dead.

    What I disagree with on your post is that, in fact the majority of the westerners do believe in reincarnation. But we have to term it as only a single incarnation, and a single coming back alive event, and a single event judgement, rather than a plural and continuous judgement, such as Karma.

    To be truthful, and using my own intuitions and vague memories about my own previous life, I rather find the idea of penal judgement, whether one universal judgement or many innumerable ones, to be a total misconception we have, and definitely due to God's universal manipulation of our minds, where He has implanted the biggest "white" lie. A lie which our one and universal God has nearly all us souls believing. But then, if anyone would accept this as true, they would also need to swallow a big camel and the eye of the needle it went through. For, how could I possible know what God has lied to us about? We don't even know what is true, to begin with.

    I always resonated with anyone who would say and repeat the following. "We are spiritual beings having a physical experience." In other words, we are eternal and perfect beings, unknowingly acting out the parts of imperfect temporal beings.

    If I had not been assigned to play the part of a shy and weak-minded part time skeptic, I would now be on some busy street corner, pandering. Not for handouts, but handing out leaflets where on them there would be written, in big, bold, and colorful letters this: This physical life is but a joke that God is playing on all of us.
    It is said that the devil is the father of all lies. And since God is the father of all, He must be a bigger liar than the devil, who is also His creation. How can anyone believe in an omnipotent God, and not believe that the devil works under God's all-powerful commands? How can anyone believe that God, THE most high and perfect being, created anything imperfect? Only if He were in jest, would we allow such ludicrous ideas. Or, as I contend, He only makes us believe such silly things. He is taking us all for a ride. A ride on the best, greatest, and largest amusement park in existence, our physical universe.

    https://www.comparativereligion.com/reincarnation.html
    The ancient religions of the Mediterranean world developed quite different kinds of reincarnationist beliefs. For instance, Greek Platonism asserted the pre-existence of the soul in a celestial world and its fall into a human body due to sin. In order to be liberated from its bondage and return to a state of pure being, the soul needs to be purified through reincarnation. In stating such beliefs Plato was strongly influenced by the earlier philosophical schools of Orphism and Pythagoreanism. The first important Greek philosophical system that adopted a view on reincarnation similar to that of Hinduism was Neo-Platonism, in the 3rd century AD, under certain Eastern influences.

    Unfortunately not even the experts are enlightened, it seems. Can anyone really understand Plato? Not when God pulls the wool over their eyes! If only we had Plato's soul posting on this forum, then we would we begin to remove some of the wool from our physical eyes, and start to see with our mind's eye more clearly. The body always gets in the way of the soul!

    Plato's Republic: Book VII
    SOCRATES - GLAUCON
    AND now, I said, let me show in a figure how far our nature is enlightened
    or unenlightened:–Behold! human beings living in a underground den, which
    has a mouth open towards the light and reaching all along the den; here they
    have been from their childhood, and have their legs and necks chained so that
    they cannot move, and can only see before them, being prevented by the chains
    from turning round their heads. Above and behind them a fire is blazing at
    a distance, and between the fire and the prisoners there is a raised way; and
    you will see, if you look, a low wall built along the way, like the screen which
    marionette players have in front of them, over which they show the puppets.
    I see



     
  12. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi Native Son,

    That is a very interesting site to cite in terms of reincarnation and the ancient world. It certainly confirms the belief of the ancient Greeks and their philosophical descendants in reincarnation (though not of the Hindu type). However, its overall purpose appears to be to refute ideas of reincarnation in the Bible and in general.

    Cordially,
    S&S
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
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  13. John Tat

    John Tat Senior Registered

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    In my posts about myself and BB my pure spiritual self when I feel it's necessary I begin by saying "I'm not asking or expecting anyone to believe what I say in this post" In other words these memories are real to me .. I believe I have enough experience to know when the memories are real or not.. But that's me only me... I know that and that's why I clarify things be saying what I do at the beginning of these posts.. Maybe this is the situation with everyone who posts on the forum In my opinion the astral is just a name given to a place that maybe real .. I once believed I went to another place that because of what is out there believed it must have been a place given the name "astral" Looking back whatever it was … was not a good place.. A place of extreme manipulation and evil ..What is talked about the astral is very similar if not exactly the same as I experienced … Lucid dreams .. I once experienced them all the time but stopped them along with going to a place called the astral.. We can all talk about things as much as we like but in the end its only real to us and is why I restrict what I talk about
     
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  14. SeaAndSky

    SeaAndSky Senior Registered

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    Hi John,

    Actually, I agree with you on most of this. People need to be aware of the fact that false memories can be "created" by suggestion and clumsy hypnotists. Thus, a skilled regressionist at the least is necessary to avoid this, and (to me) it seems like false memories are more likely when we're just winging it with a Youtube video. However, whether dealing with the PL memories of young children or with those or adults, I actually trust spontaneous memories more than those produced under hypnosis (but once again, that's just me). When dealing with any of these (or with other techniques such as you use), we have to use our own "truth detectors" always being aware that it may not be true even though we might want it to be, but also that it may not be false just because we doubt it. Still, for many, things mount up until they reach a point of trusting their instincts and techniques (as has happened with you). Ultimately, one way or another, people have to be the judge of the veracity of their own experiences.

    Cordially,
    S&S

    PS--The "astral" is reputed to include a lot of different locales, some of which are unpleasant. However, I don't think that all are that way.
     
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  15. Native Son

    Native Son Senior Member

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    The Problem With Reincarnation

    It's not the lack of evidence.

    Here is something I ran across just now, although it is a little dated (2012) and which is an interesting perspective from an MD's point of view on reincarnation/unconsciousness, who also claims to be a Buddhist. He opens with this: "Though I practice Buddhism, I don't actually believe in reincarnation."

    I'll post part of what is available at https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/happiness-in-world/201210/the-problem-reincarnation

    Given what we now know about the enormous size and power of the unconscious—about just how much of "us" lies beneath the surface of our conscious minds—we have to admit that the defining core of who we are may, in fact, be located mostly, if not entirely, beneath our awareness (our conscious minds being mostly spectators and interpreters of our unconscious selves).


    But what does even this mean? That our unconscious beliefs and habits define who we are? Does our conscious awareness, the values we're able to articulate to ourselves, have nothing to do with our identity? And what about our memories of who we've been? Without those, would not some essential part of the self be lost?

    Many Buddhists would argue the sense that we even have a self is an illusion, that despite our feeling that a unique something lies at the core of what we are, such a something doesn't, in fact, exist. And though I can't answer any of the questions above, I find myself sympathetic to this point of view. I suspect the only thing constant about us is our sense that something about us remains constant, and that who we are is comprised both of stable parts (personality, beliefs, attitudes, and so on) and unstable parts (retrievable memories, moods, interests, and so on)—and that to change any one of them (whether in the realm of the conscious or unconscious) is to change who we are in proportion to their relative stability (changing a belief, for example—like a belief in God—would represent a major change; changing a mood, on the other hand, merely a minor one).


    Certainly, those of us who've gone through major upheaval in our lives or experienced an abrupt and enormous leap in maturity at some point often pause to look back and imagine ourselves as a fundamentally different person from who we once were. But perhaps our inclination to label ourselves as "changed" only when we notice a large enough difference between who we are and who we used to be ignores the truth that we're never not changing. Our lives are in constant motion, and to imagine that we could take a snapshot of them at any one point in time and somehow capture that which represents our essential selves strikes me as arguing that an actual snapshot of a flowing river represents its one true shape. So when people tell me they believe in reincarnation, the first question that comes to my mind isn't about what evidence they think argues for the possibility. Rather, it's this: just exactly what do they think gets reincarnated?

    My own take on the problem of reincarnation is that it is precisely the lack of widely accepted physical evidence. Widely accepted objective physical evidence is the problem with reincarnation. That is, it's a problem when anyone tries to scientifically provide physical evidence of reincarnation. And I see a deeper problem, which is this: why are there those that want to scientifically prove reincarnation? What is the purpose of proving reincarnation? And to answer Dr. Lickerman's question, I say that it's the SOUL that gets reincarnated. And it is precisely that, the soul, which is the main argument for the possibility of reincarnation.

    I want to emphasize that if Christianity is a representation of the teachings said to have come from God's Son in physical form, Jesus of Nazareth, the teachings are not centered on the physical aspects of man, although the actions of the physical embodiment will impact on what was being taught by Jesus. If we were only allowed to take just one passage from the New Testament, to attest to the core message and scope as to what and why Jesus taught is clearly, and unambiguously shown in this. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. What will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man will come in His Father’s glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.…

    Clearly repaying each of us according to what we have done is all about Karma. And what can be more poignant to each of us than to have accounts of past lives proved? And what is the purpose for having proved to us that reincarnation is the process by which the soul participates in the physical world? Is it not the old question of good and evil? Where good actions are rewarded with good, and evil actions beget evil in return? And in the physical world, generally, pleasure is considered a good, and pain considered an evil, although there are some pleasures that lead to pain, and some pains will lead to pleasure, in the end. Therefore, would not becoming overwhelmingly convinced of actual past lives by all means, subjective and objective combined, provide us with the "knowledge" that our physical actions come with consequences, whether in this life or another to follow? It's all about physical pleasure and pain, and the soul being immortal and indestructible, can endure all possible physical pain and pleasure.
    Just one soul is worth more than any infinite physical universe, and that's that, end of the story.

    Unfortunately, once we become privy to the truth about the physical world, which is just a world of shadows, an amusement park for the soul, or as some term it, enlightenment, the thrill is gone and we long to go back to our real home, free of the body, our ball and chain.





     
  16. Native Son

    Native Son Senior Member

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    S&S,
    I just used the portion from that site regarding Plato and reincarnation, since Plato, and also Aristotle, were firm believers in the soul. Those two had much to do with influencing Western Thoughts, which was what I was trying to emphasize. I linked the source from which I took the excerpt from just for the record, as I'm a proponent of reincarnation.
     
  17. Native Son

    Native Son Senior Member

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    Here is another interesting article from psychologytoday.com and is a recent one, Jun 2019. Since this topic is meant to ask if there are any proven cases of past lives accounts, evidence is the key to proving reincarnation. The author of the article is Iddo Landau, Ph.D., and is a Professor of Philosophy at the University of Haifa. He has written extensively on the meaning of life.
    The title of his article is a question, and one that many of us here ask ourselves and others: What Would Be Sufficient Evidence for Reincarnation? In other words, what is considered sufficient evidence to verify a past life account? The sub part of the title is also in a form of a question, and which is very relative to many of us here, and it's this: Is believing in reincarnation a reasonable way of finding meaning in life? In other words, are those here on this forum, myself included, seeking to find meaning to this current life of ours through the belief of having seeking/finding a previous past life?

    Combining the two questions title of the article, I suppose that, speaking for myself, can put it this way. Are those of us who believe in reincarnation do so, mainly, to seek and find the meaning of life/existence?
    Here is some of professor Landau's article, and the rest, if of any interest for open discussion on this thread, is here. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...at-would-be-sufficient-evidence-reincarnation


    There are probably several causes for people’s interest in reincarnation, but at least two relate to the meaning of life.


    First, there seems to be a lot of injustice in this world. Many good people suffer while many evil people flourish. Existence will be better, less absurd and more meaningful, if after we die good people are rewarded and the evil people punished.

    Second, the thought that in death we will completely perish and disappear makes many people feel that their lives are inconsequential or meaningless. They want to persist.

    Accounts of reincarnation, resurrection, and of heaven and hell may answer these concerns. But there are interesting philosophical debates on whether there are rational grounds to believe that these accounts are true.

    In this blog post, I focus only on reincarnation. (I hope to discuss resurrection and heaven and hell in some future posts.) Further, when discussing reincarnation, I limit myself here to only the question of what could be considered as sufficient empirical evidence that reincarnation indeed occurs.

    Derek Parfit’s Japanese Woman Example

    Various philosophers have specified what they would see as sufficient evidence that reincarnation indeed takes place. Among them, philosopher Derek Parfit gave the following example: Suppose that a contemporary Japanese woman claims to have memories of her life as a Celtic warrior and hunter in the Bronze Age. Among other claims, she says that when she was a Celtic warrior, she buried a bracelet (whose precise shape and decoration she describes) at a certain place near, say, some special rock formation. Archeologists identify that rock formation, dig up the place, and indeed find there a bracelet that suits the description perfectly. Their instruments show that the place remained undisturbed for two thousand years. Similar claims of this Japanese lady are verified in the same way.

    Note that Parfit does not claim that such an event ever happened or would happen. He just gives an example of the type of empirical evidence for reincarnation he is looking for. This type of evidence is much more demanding than that we’d have if, for example, someone just reminisces how, when he was three years old, everyone wondered how he knew what type of tobacco his grandfather, who died 20 years earlier, liked to smoke. The 3-year-old knew the tobacco brand his grandfather liked although no one remembered ever telling him anything about it. Parfit, then, is only describing an example of what—were it to happen—would seem to him as some serious evidence that a case of reincarnation occurred. He does not suggest that we have found such evidence yet.




     
  18. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Emeritus

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    Ah-man, I haven't read one of those magazines in decades. Putting labels on things and then claiming things to being part of their domain is part of what drove me from that area; I hope that it is not doing it that way!

    Since my start in my quest was from the things I just knew, then the para-psychological experiences, my father's interest, books, conversations with my Spirit Guide/Guardian Angel/Jesus/God, my fear of this time in my current life. Nothing big as an underlying motive set me on my path.

    As to the last part of your post, such evidence does exist. In Mission to Millboro, something just like that occurred and seemingly was intentionally put in "fiction" where it would be lost. One of the members of a California town that was hypnotized and found to be part of a group that was from Virginia in a previous lifetime described a buried green-colored "room" used in the underground railroad. She later went to Virginia and dug it up herself - this to me is proof of a cover-up of facts that are unwelcome to some current power that is determined to stomp it out. That big elephant in the room is sitting on it. Here is another one.
     
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  19. Native Son

    Native Son Senior Member

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    In keeping with the thread's objective, questioning if there are any verified past lives accounts, I'm looking to verify my own perceived past life, although I can appreciate when someone's else case seems to be verified. To be clear, I'm not in need of proof/empirical physical evidence, for reincarnation, as I became "philosophically" convinced of that a long time ago by my "spirit" guides, Plato's Socrates, and my favorite, dear departed uncle, also my spirit guide, although they may turnout to be one and the same, since they had so many philosophical ideals in common. Both stoics at heart, although Socrates was the inspiration from which Zeno began the stoic movement years later, when he became aware of Plato's and Xenophon's writings dealing with their master, Socrates.

    My perceived past life is kind of a really peculiar one. And I have a problem just figuring out just how to put it forth in a way that it can be apprehended by others, because it is so full of subjective speculations/emotions/feelings/memories, and unfortunately also immersed in creative, original imagination. Although there are many who have put forth that they have lived a past life in Atlantis, including some here on this forum, I'm not remembering if any of those claimed past lives were having to do with Plato's Atlantis. I may be wrong, but I have never heard of anyone describing a past life on Plato's Atlantis. I have not fully researched to find if anyone who has, publicly, claimed to remember details of having lived in Atlantis, was in accordance with Plato's descriptions, except for the part of the "sinking" of the fabled lost continent. What I mean is that, as far as I know, all public accounts of past lives in Atlantis are of an Atlantis as related/described by new age/theosophy proponents, and I place Edgar Cayce in a category of his own. Unfortunately, Plato's Atlantis is very far from being similar to these more recent sources, except for the ending, which is that they agree with Plato in name, Atlantis, and that the continent was eventually completely lost beneath the sea/ocean.

    In keeping with proving my own past life account, I'm looking to share accounts with those who claim past lives in Atlantis. And to be clear, I'm not aiming to establish that, if yours are not the same as mine, then they must be wrong. Chiefly, I'm trying to figure out why there would be different accounts of Atlantis. As far as it has always been the case, all studies and research for the lost continent have officially established that Plato was the first source to ever mention Atlantis, and this was over 2,400 years ago. However, it has only been recently, about 150 years ago, where the account/description of Atlantis began to differ from Plato's account/description to the point of evolving into completely different "animals." Therefore it is clear to me that if I want to verify that my past life account can be verified as a true account, which is strictly, having to do with Plato's Atlantis, I must find out why there are various and much different Atlantis accounts?

    Here are just some examples
    https://theosophy.wiki/en/Atlantis
    https://cryptic-conspiracies.com/david-wilcock-antarctic-atlantis-and-secret-space-program-2019/
    https://www.edgarcayce.org/the-readings/ancient-mysteries/atlantis/
    http://www.atlantisandthesilvercity.com/

    And here is Plato's account on Atlantis. Which interesting enough, the story of Atlantis is sandwiched between stories of reincarnation. The ending of the Republic dialogue, and the opening of the Timaeus, which introduces the story of Atlantis, to then proceed with the story of creation, including the creation of the soul/souls, and the reincarnations souls go through. The story of Atlantis is further elaborated in the following dialogue, the Critias, since in the Timaeus is only the introduction of the story, and a summation only.

    http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.html
    http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/timaeus.html
    http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html

    And here is an example of some briefs as to what some say about past lives in Atlantis.
    https://www.learnreligions.com/atlantis-past-life-1731358

    Even the famous actress, Shirley MacLaine, claims to have memories of a past life in Atlantis.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
  20. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Emeritus

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    Shirley is quite brave to risk her career by being so open, good on her. I read "Out on a Limb" several years ago. The Canary Islands would fit with Plato's statement and the ocean current's direction for a distressed ship.

    My varied interests included geology as my bachelor's degree requirement, so I have ideas about things in all directions, most of them strictly personal and some even stupid probably, but that has never stopped me from making a fool of myself SO... to get us on the same page of thinking.

    Plate tectonics 101: Think of a near-boiling pot of soup on a stove where there are semi-solids on top that move around as bubbles form and move them around. Those clumps of matter are like our continents. They join and separate, most expansion comes from areas under our oceans that push one plate under another one [subduction] which creates earthquakes, volcanos, and other earth movements [breaking off parts of the other plate]. India is on a plate that has traveled from the Sothern hemisphere into the Asian plate still pushing the Himalayan mountains higher today. [after writing that, I found the link above that shows what I was trying to explain]

    See the Mediterranean area where Africa and Europe are separating? Gibraltar and Spain were once joined by a mountain barrier, all of that is known science. Plato lived during a time after the Atlantic ocean breached into the valley between the separating plates. Plato's Pillars of Hercules's statement was that Atlantis was "outside" of said Pillars. I imagine most everyone would agree with me, if they looked into the cities found underwater in the Mediterranean, that it was not always covered with water, what is unknown is what was dry land and what was underwater prior to the disturbance 12,000 + years ago that made so many changes. Were Noah and other Great Flood stories about the meteorite-strike, the breach at Gibraltar, or something else? Atlantis could be a myth, on the European plate, or African plate. Sailors at that time [Plato] did not venture much, if any, beyond Herc's Pillars. There was a shallow sea across West Africa at one point in time giving us even another thought, that the mountainous West coast could conceivably be included. I, personally liked this West-African idea until I realized that if there was a shallow sea there during Plato's time or a little earlier, they would have sailed on it.
     
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  21. Native Son

    Native Son Senior Member

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    @KenJ I see that you have some good credentials for discussing Plato's Atlantis. However, I have to tell you that when Plate tectonics became understood and accepted by science all those claims of an Atlantis size continent having submerged around 12,000 ago, or more, was completely debunked, since technology also allowed the corroboration by the accurate mapping of the floor of the Atlantic ocean. Also there is no scientific conflict about the Mediterranean having once been land-enclosed at the current opening to the Atlantic (strait of Gibraltar). But the probable/plausible event credited with the eventual opening and the resulting watery connection of the Med Sea with the Atlantic Ocean has nothing to do with Plato's Atlantis. And if you are familiar enough with the history of all the claims of having found, or just proposed, the possible location(s) of where Atlantis may have been located, you will be hard to find a spot on the face of the earth where it has not been proposed to be. In other words, it seems that Atlantis was everywhere on earth, if we take in consideration all the claims. In fact, you will also find that some have proposed hypotheses of Atlantis having been on other planets, and one source has even speculated and asked the question what if Atlantis was a giant ancient aliens spaceship? For anyone who may believe to have had past lives in Atlantis, and is interested with Plato's Atlantis, and for those that may not be aware of, here is a website that stores a wealth of information on anything having to do with hypotheses as to when and where Plato's Atlantis existed. http://atlantipedia.ie/samples/ Perhaps some with memories of an Atlantis past life could find confirmation/corroboration of some details of their memories of having lived on Atlantis, which would reinforce the stories they convey to others on this forum, and elsewhere.

    Have you perhaps any memories of one or more past lives in Atlantis? I don't recall you ever mentioning it. I have never read Shirley's "Out on a Limb", as you have. Did she give any particular details/information of what she remembered of her lives in Atlantis?

     
  22. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Emeritus

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    It was several years ago that I read Shirley's book. If I remember correctly, she spoke of an enchanted cave with a passageway to a pool, spirits, and a being that..., oh well, as I said, it was years ago.

    We don't hear much about Mu or Lumera either and I wonder if they add to the confusion. I wish that we could find someone with ancient Chinese memories when they ruled the world's oceans and major rivers.

    Here is the "world map" of Plato's time, the question being whether or not he ever saw it. There should be no confusion as to where "outside" the Gate of Hercules was located other than the Spain/Africa border at the other end of the Mediterranean, or is that the problem? Could it be that Atlantis was East of Athens instead of West?.
    400bc map.png
    Here is another map at that period showing the word "Atlantis" that I imagine you have seen.
    430 bc map.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
  23. Native Son

    Native Son Senior Member

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    Your imagination is correct, I've seen those two maps, and not only seen, but had various discussions with other atlantologists on them. Herodotus was helpful with establishing the understanding as to where the Greeks of his times considered the pillars of Heracles to be, which obviously are the present day strait of Gibraltar. Even the location of Plato's mentioning of the pillars is something that not all atlantologists agree on. Those with an hypothesis proposing an Atlantis somewhere in the Mediterranean sea, and not somewhere in the Atlantic ocean, for instance, the Atlantis location is Thera (Santorini) hypothesis, do not, and cannot agree to Gibraltar being the pillars Plato intended, otherwise their hypotheses falls apart.

    We can probably discuss Plato's Atlantis, and all the hypotheses on where and when for Plato's Atlantis, for the next 6 months and still never be any closer to the truth that only Plato himself could lead us to. But I would enjoy exploring and exchanging stories/memories with those with claimed past lives on Atlantis. This was my intention, and not specifically discuss Plato's Atlantis itself.

    But I do thank you for the discussion and exchange here, even if it's not related to a past life in Atlantis.
     
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  24. Native Son

    Native Son Senior Member

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    I'm going to be frank, although I may appear to be otherwise. Here is what I would seriously consider a VERIFIED past life account. And although there are many books and other material out there, which have laid out cases that many accept as verified past life accounts, I say that they are all too weak to make the case with the skeptics and cynics of reincarnation. There are too many claiming to have objective evidence, such as some who are posting here, but in reality it's just subjective. Although we do have some very good cases where the evidence may really seem to be strong, as far as being objective. No doubt that Dr. Stevenson's work can be classed second to none, when it comes to objective evidence. Our very own gracious host, Carol Bowman, and her work, is in the same ballpark with Dr. Stevenson, and Dr. Tucker, Stevenson's disciple continuing the work, being the one to hold the same seat at the same university as Dr. Stevenson, U of Virginia. I would say that these mentioned, along with others not mentioned, who are presenting cases to the general public, where objective evidence is claimed, or assumed objective, seem to be making little impact with those who are generally skeptics, when it comes to reincarnation. In this last I have to agree with @ssake, who believes that his case, if verified and accepted by academia, will be that one world-shattering reincarnation case that would overcome this great wall of skeptics opposing reincarnation, since those before him made little progress, as he also stated.

    I'm certain that a few skeptics have been won over by the great work put forth by our champions, as mentioned above, who march forth with an unspoken mission, but still carrying the flag of reincarnation nonetheless. Their biggest victories have been with those that have a strong tendency for believing in the supernatural, and specifically, the biggest victories are over those that have had some type of memory/feelings of having lived before. Obviously, there is also evidence that some of us may be living this life, which is under the influence of a previous one, as then Karma comes into the picture. And there is some evidence that perhaps some of our current medical ills may be due to some incident that may have occurred in a previous life. Therefore, we have some physicians who are treating some patients based on what may be a previous life root cause.

    Now, these medical cases, at least those declared cured, may be good candidates for these "verified" past life accounts which this thread was searching for. But we must remember that even these medical cases are subject to close scrutiny, and unfortunately, since these cases are nearly, entirely connected to psychological trauma, and therefore mental, it's nearly impossible to, objectively, establish if the root cause of the medical conditions really existed due to a past life trauma. And even the cure cannot be objectively shown that it was accomplished by bringing forth, usually through hypnosis/regression, a more complete memory/feeling of the past life event believed to have caused the problem, which is said to be the key for the cure. In other words, for the patient to understand why, as for example, they have a phobia of water, can be explained by a past life event, where death occurred by drowning. This better understanding and the bringing out, from a deeper subconscious memory, the past life drowning, and face it, brings forth the cure of the phobia for water. Unfortunately, only the patient is privy to what is and what is not part of their imagination. But this does not exclude the reality that indeed a cure was accomplished. If the patient is cured of the phobia, the cure has occurred, as seen whenever the patient can be near, or in the water, and not suffer high anxiety, or panic attacks, which previously occurred. Those who know the patient well, and have witnessed the patient's behavior around water, before and after the cure, provide the objective evidence as far as the phobia itself, but it's not objective evidence when it comes to reincarnation itself. Because, as we know, cures do happen spontaneously, and the placebo effect is known to cure even physical diseases. And we also have those claimed miracle cures through prayers and meditation to think about.

    Before I get too lost myself in this "ocean of words" I'm posting, as the ancient wise would term the use of many words by the sophists, who made a living with the twisting and stretching the words, so as to mean anything they wanted the words to say, What I'm getting at is that we don't have any real objective evidence of a verified past life account. And in a nutshell, I'm looking for the objective evidence that will totally bring down that giant wall of skeptics, and thereby, win the battle of evermore, the one winning over every skeptic and cynic of reincarnation. How and where are we to look to find this ONE VERIFIED PAST LIFE account?

    I believe I have touched upon this before. What amazes me is that many accounts of past lives give a period of "between lives" where the soul/consciousness spends time in the astral realm, as some call it. In this realm there is supposed to be a council that is dedicated with the soul's learning lessons on earth, so as to spiritually progress. Now this is an interesting concept because it implies some planning and knowledge of "future" events by the council. Because if the soul's schooling/training is scheduled around some specific situations that will provide the training, the grounds for developing these skills/knowledge, they have to be under control and have to be made available to the student soul. For instance, using Karma in this example, if a soul has committed a murder in a previous life, and it needs to experience being murdered in a future life, those future conditions have to be known before the soul can be put in a situation where the life in which it has to experience being murdered can be ascertained that it will occur. In other words, the future has to be known before the soul takes on that particular life where it will suffer the fate of being murdered. Therefore, what I'm getting at is this. Objective evidence of a past life that would "knock our socks off", as some say, is the same one that has been talked about for millenniums. Using a religious reference, once Moses was asked by some of his skeptical follower in the desert, "how can we tell a true prophet from a false one?" Keeping in mind that these skeptics must have been eyewitness to the parting of the waters, all the plagues of Egypt, the receiving of the, six days a week, manna from heaven, the pillars of fire, and all the rest, they were still skeptics. Moses reply to these skeptics on true prophecy was that old line pass; if it comes to pass, then the prophet whom prophesied is a true one, one that comes in God's name to bring the future news.

    Why don't we have any of those that claim to have objective evidence of having been in the astral realm between lives on earth, or that they easily communicate with others in that realm beyond the physical senses, bring us foolproof objective evidence of a verified past life, so that those foolish skeptics and cynics of reincarnation come to know the truth of reincarnation? To use a poor and foolish analogy, will all the skeptics of there being a hell only accept that there is a hell only if they find themselves in hell itself? Not that I believe in a real hell, as I was using it only to make the point. In other words, as it stands today, there is not one, or more, cases of verified past lives, when it comes to reincarnation, for those who have never seen the astral realm, or remember ever having lived another life, other than this one.

    Therefore, what's the point that Dr. Stevenson, and all other proponents of there being evidence of reincarnation want to make? To inform who? And why? Is there a universal message about reincarnation that needs to be passed on to mankind? And if that is the more likely scope, why do we need to be convinced? I do not mean "we" as us here, who are, apparently, already convinced. Why do we seek for "verified" past life accounts?

    Why on earth do we have people that believe that they have a special earthly mission of converting non-believers into "reincarnationists"? Are we, those of us that want to convert the reincarnation non-believers, like the Jesuit order, out to convert the world to Catholicism? Yes, I'm coming out of the closet. I'm definitely one of those that, subjectively, believes I have been assigned a mission, one which has been assigned from the highest level of the astral realm, no less. But, I'm grounded enough to realize that I have only subjective and conjectural evidence to go by. Unlike others' claims, I have only material that is speculative in nature.

    In other words, my VERIFIED actual past life account is engulfed in the realm of 3 words, and the meaning of these three.

    1. Possible refers to something that exists and may or may not be proven.

    2. Plausible refers to something that is reasonable or valid.

    3. Probable means the something could exist/happen but until now it hasn’t been proved/found.

    Plato's Atlantis is something that Possibly exists, but may or may not be proven.

    Plato's Atlantis is Plausible because it is reasonable, and also valid, because the story is full of reason, and it's valid because within the story there is a valid FUTURE Warning.

    Plato's Atlantis is that Probable something that can exist, although until now it hasn't been proved to exist, because it hasn't been found.

    I would shout out to anyone who will listen, GET YOUR MOTOR RUNNING!

     
  25. Totoro

    Totoro Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I have all of that as I'm sure do others on the forum. The issue is, it's only meaningful in the context of my own life and the future is also malleable. Along with that, it's hard to predict things and when they do happen (eventually) they can be blown off as coincidence, happenstance or exaggeration.

    I think that reincarnation is simply an "insiders" game. It's also been shown by some of the authors you mention that some people don't want to know about their past lives and I think that extends to the average person as well. A majority of souls on Earth aren't ready to hear about it or it would prove of little value to them.

    I have a pretty solid case but I'm not a preacher or a cheerleader. Why? Again, most people won't care. I'm in the process of writing a book, as details pertain to a few historical figures I want cleared up, on the record, but it's going to reach so few people and even fewer of them will be open to the idea of reincarnation.

    I'm just a cynic in that regard.. I'm sorry. However at the same time, I also believe that people just want to go about their lives and the best you can do is talk to the people that want to listen.
     
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  26. KenJ

    KenJ Moderator Emeritus

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    It seems as though there are, now and throughout history, people thinking along these same lines without being able to pull it off [ie. prove reincarnation]. I experienced such close conversation with my Guide that I literally lost my ability to distinguish between that reality, what we call normal, and temporary insanity from infection or drugs. There is, in my opinion, no better way of teaching about reincarnation than having an experience or two that defies reason.

    I enjoy hearing stories by members and learn about the things that caused them to consider these beliefs. I think I'd like more depth to the snapshots and two short scenes, like a small .gif images. While swapping thought/talk with my Guide last August, I tried to think of a way to prove what was happening by telling my wife and hospital staff everything that I was doing/getting. They were respectful and did not question my sanity, some, perhaps most, wanted to hear more. So, there is an openness to hearing and learning about reincarnation in this conservative Bible-belt area around where I live. More importantly, for me was that it gave my current wife a close-up view of what I was learning/saying/experiencing.

    My impression is that a loose script is agreed to, like in my case where I was to have a disabling injury. If it wasn't that opportunity with those bricks falling on me, it would have perhaps been an auto accident or shark-bite or some other cause that would result nearly in the same way. My wife, of that period, would have agreed to play her part as a fellow actor in the play to deal with emotional and physical issues that are not available elsewhere just as I have to deal with the issues I am to experience. With all the helpers/souls, scripts could be re-written easily. I think it is interesting to find what might be considered as errors in new scripts where something "unbelievable" happens. Like those cases of people finding that the restaurant they really liked on a trip that they wanted to re-visit on their way home then find it had been closed for thirty years despite that person/family clearly knowing that they knew that they had eaten there last week.

    I agree pretty much with Occam's razor, no need to make it complex by adding fore-knowledge.
     
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  27. Jaimie

    Jaimie Senior Member

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    I am one of those who had enough trouble convincing myself to even think of trying to convince another. One of the strongest confirmations to myself was remembering things, having written it down, drew 10 to 20 years before new published memoir, biographies came out with the same new small detailes, one could not find elsewhere before that, believe me I have looked, plus everything else before that that I could not have known, no internet back then. I still wish it was not me once upon a time though, feel ashamed of the mistakes I made, but have learned from them. Anyway, hats off for those who have the guts to go out in public with their story :)
     
  28. Native Son

    Native Son Senior Member

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    That's a tall order! Wanting to, convincingly, set the record straight on just one historical figure would be a monumental success for reincarnation. Wanting to, convincingly, set straight the historical record for a few historical figures would be a universal success for reincarnation. May you have success, if truth be told. Good luck on your book.

    I myself have many times contemplated writing a book to set the record straight on Plato's Atlantis. However, every time I have seriously sat down to write a few pages, I have writer's block. I'm not up to it, as I just do not believe myself capable of doing justice to such a big task. But perhaps the stumbling block is really my dear departed uncle who is preventing me from proceeding past a few pages. And it may be just my fear of having to face and confront both the skeptics and the believers of Plato's Atlantis being a true story. I would stand alone, in setting the record straight, because the truth is something that even those ardent and materialistic Atlantis searchers would scoff at, since it is so dynamically different from any hypothesis that has ever been put forth, so far. The skeptics are those that consider Plato's story of Atlantis as just being a made-up one, where Plato fabricated it entirely, so as to make a philosophical point. The skeptics are the overwhelming majority, and within their ranks are some pillars of academia.

    I really have an internal conflict deciding if there is a purpose in becoming aware of having lived a previous life. Why only a few become aware, and not all? And would it be the right thing to do, in telling the skeptics, those not aware of having lived before? Although I'm almost 100% convinced, I still pose myself the question, if reincarnation is universal, why is this awareness not universally manifested to all? And then I ask myself another question relative to these questions; is it a reward, or a curse, to become aware of having had a previous life/lives. Further, I question my questions with more questions, but never reaching a satisfactory conclusion. If I'm rich with the sure knowledge of reincarnation, and this goes for any of us here who are equally wealthy with this knowledge, should I not give all this wealth to the poor (skeptics)? But then again, also paraphrasing another analogy from the NT, I think about this gift of awareness from a different perspective, that, if only a few of us are given pearls, it is said that we are not to cast these pearls of information to swine (skeptics) because they will, likely, only trample them; in other words, ridicule us, and also cast stones at us.

    Questions on the god of Love. From Plato's Symposium.

    And now, taking my leave of you, I would rehearse a tale of love which I heard
    from Diotima of Mantineia, a woman wise in this and in many other kinds of knowledge....
    ..../First I said to her in nearly the same words which he used to me, that Love was a mighty
    god, and likewise fair; and she proved to me as I proved to him that, by my own
    showing, Love was neither fair nor good. ’What do you mean, Diotima,’ I said,
    ’is love then evil and foul?’ ’Hush,’ she cried; ’must that be foul which is not
    fair?’ ’Certainly,’ I said. ’And is that which is not wise, ignorant? do you not
    see that there is a mean between wisdom and ignorance?’ ’And what may that
    be?’ I said. ’Right opinion,’ she replied; ’which, as you know, being incapable of
    giving a reason, is not knowledge (for how can knowledge be devoid of reason?
    nor again, ignorance, for neither can ignorance attain the truth), but is clearly
    something which is a mean between ignorance and wisdom.’ ’Quite true,’ I
    replied. ’Do not then insist,’ she said, ’that what is not fair is of necessity foul,
    or what is not good evil; or infer that because love is not fair and good he is
    therefore foul and evil; for he is in a mean between them.’ ’Well,’ I said, ’Love is
    surely admitted by all to be a great god.’ ’By those who know or by those who
    do not know?’ ’By all.’ ’And how, Socrates,’ she said with a smile, ’can Love be
    acknowledged to be a great god by those who say that he is not a god at all?’
    ’And who are they?’ I said. ’You and I are two of them,’ she replied. ’How can
    that be?’ I said. ’It is quite intelligible,’ she replied; ’for you yourself would
    acknowledge that the gods are happy and fair–of course you would–would you
    dare to say that any god was not?’ ’Certainly not,’ I replied. ’And you mean
    by the happy, those who are the possessors of things good or fair?’ ’Yes.’ ’And
    you admitted that Love, because he was in want, desires those good and fair
    things of which he is in want?’ ’Yes, I did.’ ’But how can he be a god who has
    no portion in what is either good or fair?’ ’Impossible.’ ’Then you see that you
    also deny the divinity of Love.’
    ’What then is Love?’ I asked; ’Is he mortal?’ ’No.’ ’What then?’ ’As in the
    former instance, he is neither mortal nor immortal, but in a mean between the
    two.’ ’What is he, Diotima?’ ’He is a great spirit (daimon), and like all spirits
    he is intermediate between the divine and the mortal.’ ’And what,’ I said, ’is
    his power?’ ’He interprets,’ she replied, ’between gods and men, conveying and
    taking across to the gods the prayers and sacrifices of men, and to men the
    commands and replies of the gods; he is the mediator who spans the chasm
    which divides them, and therefore in him all is bound together, and through
    him the arts of the prophet and the priest, their sacrifices and mysteries and
    charms, and all prophecy and incantation, find their way. For God mingles not
    with man; but through Love all the intercourse and converse of God with man,
    whether awake or asleep, is carried on. The wisdom which understands this is
    spiritual; all other wisdom, such as that of arts and handicrafts, is mean and
    vulgar.



     
  29. Native Son

    Native Son Senior Member

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    And yet, one cannot entertain neither the karma explanation, nor the life lessons when giving a reason for reincarnation, if fore-knowledge is taken out of the question. Excuse the pun, but Fore-knowledge is at the forefront for either of these explanations. Not to mention that fore-knowledge is also at the core of the Judaic/Christian/Moslem/Buddhist/Hindu religions; prophecy of things to come. Why, even the concept of eternity takes time as its core, as in this case time is irrelevant, since it has no basis in eternity. Eternity is something without beginning and without ending. Just knowing that something does not end, is in itself fore-knowledge.

    Therefore, we must dull that razor, and bring fore-knowledge back to the mix, when it comes to verified past lives account. Complexity should not deter anyone who can, with knowledge, disassemble and reassemble time, and reincarnation. Those neighbors of yours in the Bible-belt are waiting for the Harvest. We are indeed few, those with awareness of having lived before, and this awareness is our sickle for the time of reaping. Matthew 9:37 When He saw the crowds, He was moved with compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd. 7Then He said to his disciples, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into His harvest.”

    I believe there is every reason to believe that we must have compassion for those skeptics, and we have to make every attempt to make believers of them, they must believe that reincarnation is the universal truth for this physical universe of the five senses, and there are consequences to not being aware of Karma, or the consequences of being ignorant to the universal law of reincarnation. Ignorance of the law is not an acceptable excuse, and this goes on earth as well as in heaven (astral realm.) Again I ask, which type of verified past lives account will be the one that will bring universal victory for reincarnation? The one that will make believers out of all skeptics and cynics? Will it not this one be that very one that prophesied its own success?

    Plato's Republic.

    Yes, I said, my dear Glaucon, for great is the issue at stake, greater than
    appears, whether a man is to be good or bad. And what will any one be profited

    if under the influence of honour or money or power, aye, or under the excitement
    of poetry, he neglect justice and virtue?

    Yes, he said; I have been convinced by the argument, as I believe that any
    one else would have been.
    And yet no mention has been made of the greatest prizes and rewards which
    await virtue.
    What, are there any greater still? If there are, they must be of an inconceivable
    greatness.
    Why, I said, what was ever great in a short time? The whole period of
    threescore years and ten is surely but a little thing in comparison with eternity?
    Say rather ‘nothing,’ he replied.
    And should an immortal being seriously think of this little space rather than
    of the whole?
    Of the whole, certainly. But why do you ask?

    Are you not aware, I said, that the soul of man is immortal and imperishable?
    He looked at me in astonishment, and said: No, by heaven: And are you
    really prepared to maintain this?

    Yes, I said, I ought to be, and you too–there is no difficulty in proving it.
    I see a great difficulty; but I should like to hear you state this argument of
    which you make so light.......

    .....And thus, Glaucon, the tale has been saved and has not perished, and will
    save us if we are obedient to the word spoken; and we shall pass safely over the
    river of Forgetfulness and our soul will not be defiled. Wherefore my counsel is
    that we hold fast ever to the heavenly way and follow after justice and virtue
    always, considering that the soul is immortal and able to endure every sort of
    good and every sort of evil. Thus shall we live dear to one another and to the
    gods, both while remaining here and when, like conquerors in the games who
    go round to gather gifts, we receive our reward. And it shall be well with us
    both in this life and in the pilgrimage of a thousand years which we have been
    describing.


     
  30. Klaud

    Klaud Senior Member

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    I always saw the astral realm as being layered. When you go down the layers, it gets progressively more dark and scary. The beings that live down there aren't the ones you want to mess with.

    The further up you go, the more light there is.
     
    fireflydancing likes this.

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