Are there bodies that don't have a soul?

Discussion in 'Reincarnation Questions' started by Misty8723, Oct 26, 2013.

  1. Misty8723

    Misty8723 Senior Registered

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    Something I've wondered about from time to time. Is it possible for a human person to exist if a soul doesn't come to inhabit it? If so, what would that person be like?
     
  2. Owl

    Owl Super-alt Mitglied

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    No, I don't think so. I think the soul is an important organ, like the brain or the heart. If the person is born without a brain it dies in a few hours usually or is born dead. If the person is born without a soul, probably something similar happens.
     
  3. BriarRose

    BriarRose Senior Registered

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    I don't think it would be possible. I believe that a person with severe mental handicaps has a soul, and is whole on the other side.
     
  4. argonne1918

    argonne1918 Senior Registered

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    Helen Wambach and other researchers have gotten answers that indicate the soul does not permanently join the fetus until the moment of birth. And the soul starts leaving as the body is dying. People who are in a coma (or maybe alzheimer's) may have "out of body" experiences. I think people who are in a vegetative state may have periods when the soul has temporarily left the body. If only people who get so worked up over abortion and end of life issues knew what we know.
     
  5. Aelfgyva

    Aelfgyva Senior Member

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    Body and soul...


    This is part of another post from an earlier thread I had answered on when the soul makes contact with the body, I think it might fit in here as well...


    As a young student in college, I worked part-time in a hospital as a phlebotomist (a person who draws blood for the lab) to earn some much needed cash for school. After a child is born, the first person who sees that child is the phlebotomist to take a blood sample. I was amazed, even at my young unknowning age, at the differences I saw in these less than one hour old children! (I am refering to "normal" birth children)...Some of these babies would look at me with the eyes of an "ancient one"...some, with emptiness. I came to the conclusion for myself, that maybe some souls had not yet arrived.


    I do think it is possible in the very early stages of life, to come in and out of our bodies and maybe also shortly after birth. But...to have what we would call a "human" experience, I feel we need both body and soul...
     
  6. usetawuz

    usetawuz Senior Registered

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    I agree with this...when a soul is committed to "ensouling" a body, there is the attaching of "spirit" to the body...the soul may be off doing what it does (i.e. as they go away during sleep, etc.), but there is still the infusion of spirit or soul attachment to the body. When there is no longer an attachment to spirit or soul, the body dies. This is the impression I get anyway. However, my son says I need to make allowances for zombies and the undead! He was joking...
     
  7. Totoro

    Totoro Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Here's a different thought... and we're not supposed to be discussing this, but I'm only saying it as a counter point or thought experiment as it compliments the discussion (so please no long form discussion on this in specific) but do animals have souls? If not, how do they "run"?


    If humans (which are essentially animals) didn't have souls, how would they "run" as well?


    While I don't take Newton's books 100% part and parcel, he posits an interesting case about how his subjects claimed to have guided the development of the human being into something that souls could inhabit and make use of as incarnate "automobile".


    If this is so, how do you think humans existed before souls took up residence in them? I don't mean that rhetorically, but as a question for discussion :)


    It's interesting to think that humanity has been guided over the millennium by whispers from the other side. The most ancient religious texts seem to echo what we take for granted in this forum and even before that, anthropological evidence seems to suggest that even the most ancient human was a fully fledged, conscious and moral individual.
     
  8. Misty8723

    Misty8723 Senior Registered

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    Not to get into a long discussion, but as to animals having souls - no doubt in my mind that they do.


    Also, years ago I was really into Edgar Cayce, and remember his description of how and why souls began to inhabit bodies. I'll have to refresh my memory on the particulars.


    I've also picked up from multiple sources that souls can come and go while the fetus is developing and enter permanently either shortly before birth, during the birth, or sometime after birth. I know it's not exactly "permanent," because we can have out of body experiences, but I think eventually we (soul) are more tethered to the body.


    I tend to think it as having a symbiotic relationship, soul and body complimenting each other. Which is why I was wondering what would happen if a body developed with no soul choosing to inhabit.
     
  9. Shiftkitty

    Shiftkitty Registered User

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    Must... resist... political jokes...


    Seriously, though,

    We don't even have empirical evidence for the existence of the soul. We only have hints. So how can they have "answers" indicating anything? (Curious, not being snarky.)
     
  10. starrynight

    starrynight Senior Registered

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    I'm pretty sure animals have souls as well and even choose to reincarnate with us. I've had one pet cat at least 4 different lifetimes (he's been in many pl dreams, I have even wondered if he may be a split soul but I know that is a diffrent subject altogether).


    I have one cat now I am convinced is a one that went missing a number of years ago and another that I have memories of from being a small girl in my American life. I don't think they could choose us again if they didn't have souls.


    I do think the concept of the soul fully joining the body after birth makes alot of sense.
     
  11. Mama2HRB

    Mama2HRB Senior member

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    What if a "sleeper soul" takes place in the body when the "owner soul" goes out of the body for a while? That is what I came across a long time ago ... the "sleeper soul" just sleeps ...and awaits the return of the "owner soul".
     
  12. BriarRose

    BriarRose Senior Registered

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    Back to Totoro's post - the Bible says that the Sons of God found the Daughters of Men "fair", and had carnal knowledge of them. Who were the Sons of God? Angels? Visitors from space? Did humans receive souls from angel/human interaction? Were we as beasts before? No one really knows. It's a scrap of ancient text, like many others. We're left adrift here, pondering ancient mysteries. Fun, isn't it? I read a very odd book called "When We Were Gods" about souls coming to the earth plane, and coupling with primitive, bestial humans. They became trapped on this plane of existence, feeling both shame, and a yearning to return to God. The author supposedly received this information during a PL regression, done by a reputable practitioner. That person wrote the Forward, and attested that the information came through as stated, but wouldn't attest to it's truth. Food for thought?
     
  13. argonne1918

    argonne1918 Senior Registered

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    I think I read that book years ago. Sort of ties in with Erich Von Daniken and "Chariots of the Gods".
     
  14. helz_belz

    helz_belz Super Moderators Staff Member Super Moderator

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    There is enough evidence mounting to suggest that not only humans, but all animals, have a sense of morals and 'self' to a varying degree (eg 'How Animals Grieve' by Barbara King, 'Animal Wise: The Thoughts and Emotions of Animals' by Virginia Morell). The way I see it, we are all creatures, imbued with an animating 'spark' of the Universe, but our perceptions of the Universe are necessarily experienced through the 'lens' of the body the 'spark' is embodied within.


    For example, humans have a highly evolved brain, evolved for processing complex social interactions, problem solving etc. So, any 'soul' which inhabits a human body will experience Life through the processes of the complex human brain. A mouse or a fish or an insect, has a less complex brain, which is instead highly evolved for the functions it performs in its mousey/fishy/insecty life - any 'soul' inhabiting that body will experience Life through that brain/lens (which from the outside, to us, may look 'simple' or lacking in emotion or a soul).


    So, basically I see all Life as a spectrum, with no difference between animal and human souls, only difference in the external physical body. Since we can speculate that souls have always existed within all physical life, then there was no difference between our earliest ancestors and ourselves, expect for the changes that happened during the evolution of the brain acting as a lens for the soul. 3 million years ago our ancestors were busy picking up 'objet d'art' (see the Makapansgat pebble), but would we recognise them/their souls as fully fledged, conscious or moral in a 'human' sense?
     
  15. Misty8723

    Misty8723 Senior Registered

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    Edgar Cayce supposedly said something similar during his trance states. I found a book about Souls from Cayce's readings last weekend when I popped into the used book store, and started reading it last night. Fascinating.
     
  16. usetawuz

    usetawuz Senior Registered

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    While I agree all physical forms have souls, I believe there is a difference in the complexity of the souls between those differing physical forms not simply defined by the brain and the physical container (i.e. body, society, morality). As it is not appropriate for this forum, I will leave it with the idea that dogs, for example, are ensouled by a much greater "collective soul" and never truly separate from that collective soul, unlike the souls of humans which have the ability to focus so intently on their illusion of separation that for all intents and purposes, each human being thinks of itself as a single, separate unit...an illusion on which our entire society is based.
     
  17. BriarRose

    BriarRose Senior Registered

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    Once again, intriguing, Usetawuz. That other species share collective souls seems right. I don't find this line of discussion inappropriate. We aren't discussing transmigration, but that all forms of life have their own soul integrity.
     
  18. wednesday

    wednesday Senior Registered

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    To me, animals are similar to people in that maybe some seem to be very much alike and I could imagine a 'group soul' for them. I've come across individuals of many species ( I'm including humans here too) that are very much unique....actually for cats I don't see a group soul working for them at all..lol..I joke.....but I've had two dogs when a child that were very humanlike (or humane-like maybe is better as human doesn't necessarily mean humane). They were very perceptive, empathic, and also mothering and protective. To me they were like the best kind of human clad in fur. I haven't seen that in every animal but those two stand out as very much individual.


    I have seen very unique behavior in cats also. One stands out in my mind like she could read the future. I don't want to go into particular stories, but she had reacted to situations and individuals in a way that when I looked back on it later, it seemed as if she knew what would be coming from the situation or person. How I wish that cat could have talked.
     
  19. Misty8723

    Misty8723 Senior Registered

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    I have a hard time accepting that animals have a "group soul," whatever that might mean. Every animal I've ever encountered were different and unique. In some ways, I think they may be even more advanced than humans, because I believe they have the ability to communicate telepathically.
     
  20. helz_belz

    helz_belz Super Moderators Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Once you get to know animals at the level of the individual you come to realise that each is as unique in their personality as are humans. I've always kept budgies, and people say 'oh, they're just birds, they're all alike', well, from all my years experience I can tell them they are wrong, each bird is unique in personality, and where do we often say personality comes from for humans? The soul and it's experiences through many lifetimes. There is an anecdote that Sir David Attenborough has told about when he was working with some cameramen filming spiders, the cameramen were complaining that one spider was scared of the lights, one was camera-shy, one was grumpy and aggressive, one was just 'bone idle', but one happily carried on her spidery-behaviours no matter who was watching - each spider had it's own personality!


    So no, I don't think there is any 'group soul' going on with animals, no matter how great or small, to think otherwise is too 'human-centric' for me. My own experiences with the Divine Nature of all Life has taught me this.
     
  21. usetawuz

    usetawuz Senior Registered

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    I did not mention "group soul" in my comments...rather"Collective soul" which I take to mean a collective of souls more in tune with the collective whole of their incarnating level or vibration...and it did not include any judgement regarding advancement above or below that of humans.


    My point was that the collective soul is less intent on an existence of separation...less consciousness of self as an individual...less focus on how different it is than any other dog in the pack...instead it finds it's place and lives within it. Humans seem to lose that capacity after a certain age. But to your point there is also a line of research that proposes our human souls are all part of one single group soul incarnating millions at a time...so I suppose it is whatever fits in your worldview.
     
  22. firebird

    firebird Registered User

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    Apologies in advance for quoting you ...


    My take on this is that, contrary to what some others believe, whales fall under the category of a group soul. They really are special/unique in this way, I think. Also I have owned a pet (a dog) whose soul had previously experienced life as a human being. So while I think your "collective soul" concept may be true for many animals, I know there are exceptions.


    ---


    But, whatever soul disposition is contained in any form of life, it should command respect from all.
     
  23. helz_belz

    helz_belz Super Moderators Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Thank you for clarifying Usetawuz, and I am sorry for having misunderstood your meaning. The terms ‘group soul’ and ‘collective soul’ sounded like very similar terms of expression to me, and I apologise. Now I understand your meaning more I can see more where you are coming from. Would these ‘group souls’ be more likely, say, to reincarnate within a single species, and less likely to reincarnate outside the species they are most familiar with? If so, I could agree that maybe some souls do prefer to come back as a species with which they are familiar (humans being a very good example, possibly whales, dolphins, great apes and parrots being others), whereas other animals which are more in-tune with the collective experience of Life are less tied to repeated lives within a single species?
     
  24. usetawuz

    usetawuz Senior Registered

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    firebird, that is amazing about whales...I had no idea...and I agree that there are exceptions to every rule...I am a living one!


    Helz, no problem...and it is my belief that the focus on choice of incarnation is based in vibration, or something akin to it. All beings, I believe, have souls but where and how they are formed and of what manner of energy all dictates different experiences...(assuming of course, the single Source of all, which I believe exists), however, I also believe there are exceptions to each "rule" to enable the desired experiences to occur. There may be some semblance of evolution or advancement through differing levels of complexity, though that too is unclear...a very wise friend believes horses have the most advanced souls of animals on earth, though some of the ones I've been around would indicate a level of perversity and meanness off the scale of even humans!


    On a slightly different tack and with a view into the vastly different capacities and "occupations" of souls, Sudman's "Application of Impossible Things" delineates the author's experience with beings who are in awe of those of us who incarnate...it takes a razor sharp focus on a single narrow dimension which is a very specialized skill...which indicates there are amazingly more things "under the sun" than we can possibly imagine.
     
  25. SMurphy

    SMurphy Senior Registered

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    every living thing


    The research shows that every living thing is ensouled and that the soul is synonymous with life. There is the 'silver cord' that maintains life during an out-of-body experience or dream, which very few souls can perceive. The nobel colors are outside the visible spectrum to all but the noblest of souls.


    The key is to know that the quality of souls range from the lowest frequency energy to the highest. Those embodied with a the lowest frequency can tend to act like 'walking dead' while others act like 'angels on earth'; with most of us somewhere in the middle.
     
  26. BriarRose

    BriarRose Senior Registered

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    Interesting, KDB. The religious dogma that everything is perfect struck me as a platitude when I was younger. I'd think, "Oh, sure it is". Now, I think that things don't seem perfect to us, but they may be perfect for the purpose of our souls. There was a truth hidden in the platitude. As for psychopaths, I don't see how they could function without some sort of soul. I believe that evil exists for a reason, and it would be hard to convince a fully functioning soul to commit a psychopathic act, even to serve a purpose in someone's life plan. It occurred to me that perhaps part of the psychopath's soul stays behind on the other side, to allow the commission of an evil act, and to shield the psychopath from the full horror of his/her actions. This may not be making sense, but a friend suggested to me that Hitler was a "volunteer". There was "divine purpose" behind the terrible acts that caused so much suffering. It's just a theory, and not one I created. But, we should be able to discuss politically incorrect subjects without getting "our tails in a knot"!
     
  27. Aelfgyva

    Aelfgyva Senior Member

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    Evolution 101...and The Good, Bad and Everything In-Between...


    Hello KDB...you write,


    "...but there was a time when humans were too primitive for souls to occupy."


    I'm going to take a plunge in cold water and say that I think the soul can also evolve...that every experience any life form makes is capable of evolution... My earliest pastlife memory is of a small mouselike creature looking directly into the eyes of a meateater... OMG ( sorry...animal topic again...but bare with me!!) I actually had thoughts...primitive yes, but thoughts! I've come a long way since then...but the evolution of my soul is every ongoing! That is why I feel that to have any life experience, it must be accompanied by a "soul"


    BrairRose...the idea of a Hitler being a volunteer is not far from the idea I read in a childrens book about "good" and "bad". In this book one soul wanted his human experience to be the experience of forgiveness...but this soul needed another soul/souls to "volunteer" to do something that the first soul cold forgive, without this/these "bad" souls doing, there could be no forgiveness. This is a wonderful and simple way to explain to children the difference between "good" and "bad"...but for me it comes very close to how it may really be when it comes to human experiences.
     
  28. usetawuz

    usetawuz Senior Registered

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    I feel that all beings have some semblence of a soul, so even primitive humans would have souls...on a more fundamental basis, there is no life without some form of soul. The idea a soul leaves the body during sleep or a coma, there is still the "silver cord" connected to the physical and ensuring "animation", but once severed physical death occurs.


    Also, on the topic of Hitler "volunteering" to play an apparently negative role as mentioned by BriarRose, I've heard something along those same lines. The positive aspect of his "reign" was an amazing level of technological advancement, first by his engineers in their quest for domination, then by the allies in their efforts to find a way to stop him. When the war began there were still cannon being pulled by horses, and the war's conclusion resulted in the nuclear age. Above I mention an "apparently negative" role...by all measure of human accounting Hitler's actions were negative, evil and any other descriptive analysis you can select. But from "the other side" the good and positive effects and opportunities that surfaced as a result of that negativity would not have occurred but for Hitler. And we cannot forget that we are eternal souls having human experiences...a larger perspective is needed when attempting to find meaning and understanding of events on earth as we humans simply do not have the whole picture...to finish, I am reminded of a comment I read recently that "to write fiction, one needs to make it make sense...for reality, there is no constraint of that sort".
     
  29. usetawuz

    usetawuz Senior Registered

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    I'm not sure one comes as a psychopath intent on mayhem...I believe it more probable that they come to live a life with different parameters than most, and dependent on the intensity of the effects they encounter in this difficult environment they may react in ways completely foreign to that of someone with a greater sense of understanding or propriety. It is also my feeling that they don't consider themselves wrong or evil, but rather just different than the crowd they are forced to live with...their actions are taken with a mind to benefit themselves while their consideration of the effects their actions have on others is of little to no concern. The emotion and horror we witness is our humanity...and very possibly a reminder of the "not so nice" roles we have all played when things "went off the tracks". From the soul side of the matter, with the knowledge of an eternal soul and a view of how each experience plays into those past and future experiences and events with all the players having chosen to participate, the commentary becomes more along the lines of "Hmm, interesting choice of experience he's having there...".


    In a life that went sideways on me, I recall "hearing" the justification that "it wasn't supposed to happen that way" and my further actions compounded the negativity immensely...the sense of the lesson I learned was that when you find yourself at the bottom of a hole, stop digging.
     
  30. Gypsy8

    Gypsy8 Active Member

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    There are so many interesting thoughts and ideas here about the soul. Did humans start out with a soul? Did animals? I believe they did. Of course those souls would have been as empty as the hosts they inhabited. And as the hosts, both human, and lower lives, lived in strange surroundings, explored their domain, fought off dangers, and used the little or no tools they had to survive, the souls recorded the experiences and began their long journeys through the ages.


    I was struck by the conversation about psychopath's souls. In my opinion, this condition is just one of the unknown numbers of the human condition to be experienced. This condition isn't just one more learning experience for the soul, it also provides medical and scientific data that benefits humankind. And in terms of our own evolution, if we only experienced the good lives, think how utterly boring life would soon become. We need the bad to appreciate the good, just as we need the good to get us through the bad.
     

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