Enantiodromia - opposing opposites

Discussion in 'Reincarnation Questions' started by Deborah, Jul 14, 2005.

  1. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 1997
    Messages:
    277
    Likes Received:
    634
    Location:
    CA - USA
    Roger J. Woolger Ph.D. is a graduate from Oxford University and wrote in his book Other Lives Other Selves about opposing opposites and a reversal from “one personality type to another.”

    The Greek mystic and philosopher Heraclitus named the opposing energies enantiodromia -“the movement between the opposites.” Woolger gives several examples based on his experiences with some of his clients and suggests that by experiencing these opposite “selves” in regressions his clients have had a “deep moral and psychic reevaluation of themselves.”

    I am curious if members here have experienced opposing life times. This also brings up a few questions regarding choice, karma, and how consciousness creates. But before I get too deep into the implications I am curious to hear from members about their experiences as they relate to enantiodromia.
     
  2. Karoliina

    Karoliina Moderator Emerita

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2005
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    Finland, Europe
    Hello Deborah,

    I don't know if I qualify, because I'm not 100 % sure of my past lives, but thinking about the ones I think I remember I see a certain theme, that is majorities/minorities, racism etc., and I think have been on "both sides".

    This evening I have been researching my dream about being beheaded. I think it had to do with religious beliefs and this life is the oldest (16th century) I think I remember that had this theme, persecution, if you like.

    In the 17th century I believe I was a Christian biggot from England, who left to the New World and didn't tolerate people with other beliefs. So it was the other way around.

    I believe I belonged to the family of a plantation owner in the Civil War era in the Southern U.S, and didn't see slaves as our equals.

    I think I was a British colonist in South Africa at the end of the 19th century/beginning of the 20th, and again, saw my own kind as superior.

    In the first half of the 20th century I believe I had a life as a Jewish woman in Paris. I was taken to a concentration camp, but probably survived.

    In the 1950s I was born as a poor, black girl in the U.S. That was not a good life.

    This time around I belong to the majority, but I hate racism and I have dedicated a big part of my life fighting against it and unnecessary prejudices. I have worked in an anti-racism project and I'm writing my master's thesis about immigrant minorities.

    There could be others, but these come to mind now. In a broader perspective I also had a rich life in the 18th century Ireland and didn't feel for poorer people, but it wasn't as radical I think.

    I hope this was what you meant!

    Karoliina
     
  3. Chelle

    Chelle Probationary

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2003
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    In some ways my two most recent past lives were opposites.

    In my late 1800s life, I always worked to please everyone but myself and tried to meet everyone's needs but my own. I even chose my husband in that life because my family and close friends thought so highly of him. In that life I wished I had the courage to pursue my own dreams, but never did much more than dream. It was also a short life.

    My next life was in the 1910s-1950s. In that life I had all the ambition and determination to pursue my dreams that I lacked in the previous life. A little too much, perhaps. I worked hard and sacrificed much for my dreams.

    I believe that all the ambition and determination in that next life, came from a strong wish for it in the previous life. ;)
     
  4. Karoliina

    Karoliina Moderator Emerita

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2005
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    Finland, Europe
    Oh yes, in my last life before this one I was really submissive and let my boyfriend treat me badly. I'm quite the opposite now.

    Karoliina
     
  5. michaldembinski

    michaldembinski Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Warsaw, Poland; 52 degrees North, 21 degrees East
    With me it's the other way around! This time round, I'm totally monogamous and faithful, and get browbeaten by a domineering wife :)

    In my immediate past life, I cheated girlfriends, was a terrible womaniser, visited brothels (Mexicali, November 1945) and never married.

    I was also brave to the point of recklessness in the IPL. This time, over-caution is one of my worst enemies.

    I believe I died in a motorcycle accident - no helmet.

    Michal
     
  6. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 1997
    Messages:
    277
    Likes Received:
    634
    Location:
    CA - USA
    Interesting, thank you all for sharing. In the book Old Souls - the author gives an example of this with one of Ian Stevenson's case studies. On page 120, Tom Schoder reflects on Burma Children who remember being Japanese soldiers in 1945. The Burma HATE the Japanese. He even goes so far as to say that some of these children have even been killed for believing they were once Japanese.

    So when we hate something - a culture, a race, a religion, are we then drawn to a life as them due to Karma? Or are we consciously choosing to be born in a specific life in order to learn due to Karma? What are your views on this kind of juxtaposition?
     
  7. Chelle

    Chelle Probationary

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2003
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    I think it depends entirely on the soul in question. I believe some souls will choose, or make a decision, based on their experiences in previous lives. Others may find themselves drawn or placed into the new life for other reasons, such as karma or convenience.

    In other words, I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all answer. Each situation is different, as is each soul, and that has to factor into the equation that results in the next life.
     
  8. Libellule

    Libellule Iridescent Insect

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2003
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Flitting around the computer screen...
    Hmmm... both? We're drawn to that sort of life, so we make a conscious choice to experience it... :confused:

    If the dislike (I'm not going to use the word "hate") is justified, though, it's hard to say when the karmic cycle would stop. Say you're born Burmese, and you dislike the Japanese. And say you were Japanese in your previous life, and you hated the Burmese. How did you get to be Japanese in that earlier life? Was it because, even further back, you were Burmese or some other race who hated the Japanese, so your soul decided to incarnate in Japan next time 'round? Where does it stop? Where does it begin?

    Presumably, the karma would end once you got rid of your dislike and experienced what you wanted to experience in the culture you once disliked. But if that cycle is still in place due to the circumstances in each life... how does it end?

    Lib
     
  9. kris0503

    kris0503 Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2002
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Karma, of course.
     
  10. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 1997
    Messages:
    277
    Likes Received:
    634
    Location:
    CA - USA
    I agree with you Lib -I only used the word "hate" because the author did.

    So you agree Kris? That to "dislike" a culture and or its religion is primarily caused by Karma? ;)

    I find this premise very interesting. I find the underlying reasons this happens is based on an individuals thoughts - feelings and emotions before death; so I agree Chelle, it is very unique to the individual.
     
  11. kris0503

    kris0503 Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2002
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    A distaste of a culture or religion could have a lot to do with our past life experience with it. But one can also learn to dislike culture and religion due to more immediate experiences such as experiences of this life. I will give an example. I doubt if any white child, even in the most racist of families, is born with hatred for blacks. But very likely, he will grow to hate blacks as he grows up in his family. He learns hatred in this life.
     
  12. Tinkerman

    Tinkerman Administrator Staff Member Super Moderator

    Joined:
    May 24, 2004
    Messages:
    638
    Likes Received:
    609
    Location:
    The Plains USA
    Deborah, I can see how this principle would fit, or at least seems consistent with my own memories of being a spiritual holyman and in other times a fierce warrior. Interestingly enough both seem to carry through into this life. But taking this premise and the karma it infers (to me anyway) I would love to know the meaning of the loss of my family in my last life. What was its point then? Was it some opposing karmic lesson? Was its significance in a life prior to it or was its meaning meant to shape something now? Strange....I can remember searching for these answers in that life also..."why".

    Interesting thoughts.

    Tman
     
  13. Susie

    Susie Dreamer-former moderator

    Joined:
    May 15, 2001
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    California
    Hi Kris, I agree with you that people are very likely not born with the ability to hate, that it is a learned behavior. But, let's go a little deeper with this- if someone has a past life where he/she was treated unfairly or badly within a certain culture/race, then could he/she have a predisposition (I believe this would be the correct word) toward learning to hate, especially within a racist upbringing?

    I am thinking of two people, or siblings, raised in a racist atmosphere and one learns to hate a certain race/culture and another learns to love it, or feels indifferent. The predispotion toward absorbing or rejecting what your current family taught you has to come from somewhere.
     
  14. kris0503

    kris0503 Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2002
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Susie, I agree with you about predisposition. In saMsAra, I wrote about saMskAras, which I translated as impressions. This is what I said there:
    Come to think of it, predisposition is a result of impressions that we carry over from our past lives. It is possible then that some are born with a predisposition to hate which is indeed a sad state to be born in. I think more are born with a predisposition to be easily influenced by others. These are the people whose characters are molded by others, most likely parents in early years or some charismatic leader or guide in later years. Fortunate are those who are able to think for themselves and shape their own future. Ability to think for oneself is then a true strength of character.
     
  15. dark rosaleen

    dark rosaleen Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2005
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    2
    For all the obvious reasons, I rarely discuss this, but... In a past life, I lived in Nazi Germany. In this life, I'm someone the Nazis would gladly see dead (Jewish ancestry, leftist, etc.). Not only is my personality different, my circumstances are a complete reversal. Whether I chose this or not is in question, but what I've learned from that life and this one is beyond value.
     
  16. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 1997
    Messages:
    277
    Likes Received:
    634
    Location:
    CA - USA
    HI dark rosaleen,

    I think that choosing can also fall into just being drawn too a situation; such as love can draw us to someone. Hate can also do the same. If we are holding the energy within us - then we are the creators of what we are drawn too. The Tibetan Buddhists use a similar analogy.

    Bottom line, we are responsible - and although we might not be consciously choosing where we are born or to whom; we are the ones that created the scenario. Just my 2 cents. ;)
     
  17. Ailish

    Ailish Administrator Emerita

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2004
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    30
    Location:
    California Girl By Heart
    Jung speaks about this as well. For Jung, all life and energy are a play of opposites. To avoid falling into enantiodromia one must value both opposites to achieve transcendent function.

    Transcendent function is described as "a mode of experiential understanding that, mediated by the archetypes, unites the opposing aspects of the psyche, thereby forcing their energy into a common channel."

    This change of personality is naturally not an alteration of the original hereditary disposition, but rather a transformation of the general attitude.

    In my opinion, that fits together nicely with what Deborah is saying about the energy we hold within us. You can "value both opposites" without directly having to experience them. I think once you are aware, and able to balance these opposites -- you achieve transcendent function. And when that happens, I believe you are better able to create with positive intent.

    I can definitely find smaller examples of enantiodromia within my own past lives, but nothing that is a complete polar opposite. ;)
     
  18. Ailish

    Ailish Administrator Emerita

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2004
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    30
    Location:
    California Girl By Heart
    This is such a fascinating topic -- I'd really be interested in hearing what the newer members have to say. Have any of you experienced opposing lifetimes? :)



    Aili
     
  19. Axel

    Axel New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Europe, France
    Hi Deborah, Hi Everyone :)

    I really appreciate such a topic: thanks for starting it, Deborah :)


    I really feel like I have always experienced opposing lifetimes patterns within my present life. And I feel that I will be experiencing this until my last breathe.


    It is presently hard to tell more about those paradoxes because I have to focus on them while typewriting: opposing flows. I am focusing on typewriting instead of going into the details. Things could be different if I were talking to someone in person but I am just watching a computer right now.


    It took me decades before I could make sense in this all. But eventually, I feel like I understand more the purpose of those intrinsically paradoxal patterns.


    In my view, "enantiodromia" is a kind of teaching tool in my present life. This phenomenon tests the limits of each concept I believe in. This dissolves obsolete concepts inside of me. Every concept.


    It is as though I was successively wearing different coloured glasses: most of my landmarks seem to become opposite then, but actually I keep the most precious invariant landmarks: I am a Human Being.


    What "enantiodromia" does in my present life?


    - dissolving obsolete concepts (sloughs).


    What is the purpose of this all?


    - experiencing life as Human through various landmarks. My Humanness remains the same, whichever coloured glasses I wear inside.


    This is a harassing process and I saw several similar people fall into mind-traps or definitely give up.


    I am sure that only the people who experience such a phenomenon are able to understand what I mean. That's why I don't need to go into the details in this post.


    All what I can tell them is that it really is worth it. "Courage! :) "


    I am sure that such a weird frame in my present life was somehow planned before I incarnated. I remember the exact date and hour when the process really started inside of me.


    I think that "enantiodromia" is painful as long as we limit ourselves to dual logic. But given that "enantiodromia" is itself intrisically based on duality, it only makes sense in a dual perception. Otherwise, it loses its meaning :)


    Therefore, "enantiodromia" is a typical and genuine word for what it means: intrisically paradoxal :laugh:


    I am lucky I could learn mathematics because this directly helps me overcome such duality-illusions.


    This eventually teaches me how precious it is to live as Human, wherever/whenever that Human lives.


    This is a very intimate experience.


    Kind regards,


    Axel :)
     
  20. tanguerra

    tanguerra Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2006
    Messages:
    403
    Likes Received:
    269
    Location:
    Australia
    I sort of know what you mean Axel, but not 100%. I know English is not your first language, but you could try to speak more plainly. I would like to be able to understand your meaning better. I am sure it would be very interesting. For example, my suggestion would be either say exactly what you mean or leave comments out if you are not going to explain them. For instance, I have no idea what this means...If you 'don't need to go into details' why bring it up?:

    In my most recent life I had several abortions, was always poor and at the mercy of various men who I used to (rather foolishly) think I could rely on and went through a really tough time in general. I had no idea that I could look after myself if I tried and in general tended to wallow in self-pity and helplessness. (Of course, times were different then and women were in a more tenuous position in general - but still...!)


    This life I have been fortunate enough to have been born into much more comfortable circumstances, in an affluent and peaceful country for starters, with both parents living and being supportive until I was an adult. I had a great drive for both children and security from an early age. I have been criticized for being too independent, self-reliant and even arrogant (mostly by men). I did not understand where this came from when I was younger, but I had an unreasonable terror of being cold, homeless and helpless. I know now why I was like that. I am sure I was wanting to compensate for things that went wrong last time.


    I am fairly sure that being able to remember my warrior past gave me a lot of courage this life (which I lacked last life) and helped me to become more balanced within myself - balancing the soft with the strong a bit more evenly.


    In contrast to various lives spent fighting with great zeal and no real concern for the ethical issues, in this life I am so peaceful I am a vegetarian and can hardly bear to watch the TV news because sometimes seeing how cruel and heartless (not to mention self-interested) people can be makes me want to cry!
     
  21. Axel

    Axel New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Europe, France
    Hi Tanguerra :)


    Well, I won't write once more what I wrote in my previous post.


    I am not involved in a quest of knowledge but in a quest of healing. I am watching a computer - I am not talking to someone in person.


    I really needed to "bring it up" for the attention of the people who really feel what I mean inside of them. I met some people like those in my life, I know how hard it is to go into details.


    I really wished to encourage them to be strong thanks to my previous post in this topic.


    Thanks for your respectful thoughts, dear Tanguerra :)


    Kind regards,


    Axel :)
     
  22. Tinkerman

    Tinkerman Administrator Staff Member Super Moderator

    Joined:
    May 24, 2004
    Messages:
    638
    Likes Received:
    609
    Location:
    The Plains USA
    Hello Axel. I know how difficult it is to try to relate a thought or feeling via a computer screen. We lose so much in the impersonal conveyance. I enjoy reading your posts because I can see the labor involved in composing it. You give English a wonderful shade of perspective.


    As Tanguerra noted sometimes things are lost in the process of translation...but again I say, reading your words is refreshingly interesting, both in substance, composition and construction. Keep it coming.


    Regarding Tanguerra's question on the above statement....I too would like to understand what, specifically you are referring to. What is the phenomenon and harassment?


    Healing seems to be a universal quest....a journey through many lives.


    Peace, Tinkerman
     
  23. tanguerra

    tanguerra Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2006
    Messages:
    403
    Likes Received:
    269
    Location:
    Australia
    Thank you Tinkerman. Nicely put.


    I enjoy reading your posts dear Axel. I understand your intentions are good and helpful and I love your energy and enthusiasm. I just wish I always understood everything as clearly as I would like to! :)


    I was thinking of a metaphor for this reconcilliation of opposites last night (need to get a life? :) ). It is like a pendulum swinging back and forth, perhaps wildly and hapharzardly at first, gradually settling into a more regular rhythm before, one day, finally finding a central point. However, being part of a dynamic universe, we will never find absolute rest (hopefully at least!).


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foucault_pendulum
     
  24. Axel

    Axel New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Europe, France
    Hi Tinkerman :)

    Thanks for your kinds words :)


    No prob: I keep it coming but I respect my pace above all :)


    Kind regards,


    Axel :)
     
  25. Amy

    Amy Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2005
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Still Looking
    I'm not 100% certain about my past lives either but so far these are the ones that I know about:


    I believe that I was a black man enslaved to a southern plantation owner in the deep south. I was treated badly there and I am most certain that I did kill my owner. I believe my name was Sylvester & I was about 40 years old when I murdered my owner. I did have a very kind, loving wife who was about the same age.


    I was a farmer's wife in the midwest during the 1800's. I don't remember anything much about this life other than I helped plow my husband's fields and it was a hard life. I think that my name was Rachel but I'm not positive yet.


    I was a prominent roman woman during the Roman occupation of North Africa. I ended up committing suicide after finding my husband with a slave girl.


    I was a greek girl visiting Egypt with my sister and father but I don't know much more than that. I know that my family was weathly by the way my sister and I were dressed.


    I was also the very submissive, abused wife of a prominant man during the medieval period. I'm not sure which year(s). I had a little daughter with him. My daughter & I were both murdered by his men when he decided to take another wife. I'm assuming that since I had not bore him a son that this was the reason but I don't know for sure.


    So as you see there are many differences from those lives to who I am now. Especially being another sex and being black. I am a white woman now who is very aggressive and determined. I am in no way submissive to anyone. I work hard to achieve. I'm driven by my own expectations for myself. I am the breadwinner for my household and I make the majority of decisions in my household finances. Very different from the other lives I've lived.
     
  26. Quintessence

    Quintessence No One

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm 100% sure with my past lives. I think they are more like complements, than opposites.


    Some lives "neutralize" the other lives for balance and perfection.
     
  27. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 1997
    Messages:
    277
    Likes Received:
    634
    Location:
    CA - USA
    An interesting thread.


    But -- Quintessence I am always leery when someone says they are 100% sure - of anything. Life is far to fluid, and mysterious to be absolutely sure about - anything. ;)
     
  28. alaskanlaughter

    alaskanlaughter Senior Registered

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2008
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Juneau, Alaska, USA
    I'm still thinking about parallels or opposites in the lives I can remember.


    I have a brief glimpse of being sacrificed in some extremely ancient culture, which I've never really written about before. I believe I was a young girl, drugged and ceremoniously worshipped and sacrificed while tied up. Sometime I'll write about that glimpse.


    I've dreamt about being the daughter of a tailor in old London or England since I was little.


    I've seen a life where I was a goldminer and a man, who was married to the person who is now my fiance in this lifetime.


    I've seen a glimpse of being a young mother killed with her child in what I think is a gas chamber in the Holocaust.


    I've also seen a life as a young boy during a jungle war who was shot.


    Most of these seem to be as women but I can't immediately come up with more parellels or opposites. I will have to think some more and post back later. :)
     
  29. dking777

    dking777 Senior Registered

    Joined:
    May 10, 2003
    Messages:
    0
    Likes Received:
    12
    After my NDE in 78 as a teenager - I found it hard to express the spiritual insights I had sight of in a mystical haze. I would try and talk about the glimpses I had that would come to the surface in day to day conversations but when it came to reincarnation - it was a taboo subject for most.


    I finally found a young group of minds that allowed me to talk about the insights with an open mind.


    This is one of the 'facts' I relayed to them.


    If they hated something in this life to an extreme - it was a good possibility that they would become what they hated in the next life.


    The popular opinion back in the early 80's had many young minds opposed to certain types of 'gay people.' The masculinity of youth had a fear about those who were overtly feminine in their expression.


    A part of my own understanding had to do with a young girl who died in 1980. Her spirit was coming to me in visions. Her death involved an expressed hatred toward a young gay person. Her spirit told me that she was coming back as a he and was going to be struggling with the 'gay issue' in the next life. In a sense - she was going to have to walk a mile in 'his' shoes to understand the hardship he had been trying to cope with.


    My memory of what I told my friends was - it was a process of 'eliminating' the hate that had tainted the spirit in the previous life - and it was a choice the 'spirit' made once it was in view of the bigger picture. It was a choice made 'freely' once it was outside the 'human ego' point of view. It was not a choice (her spirit said) it would have made for herself while still in the human body - but once freed from the bondage of blindness and ignorance - the spirit was able to choose what was best for the soul in it's evolution forward. So - the actions done in blindness and ignorance had imposed that choice on her spirit once it was in the spiritual realm.


    But I warned my friends over and over again - that if what I had been shown in the NDE and what was being told to me by the spirits were to be believed - they had to watch out for hate they had for other people - or - chances are they would impose the same choice on their spirits in the next life.


    DK
     
  30. Kapitan

    Kapitan Probationary

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2011
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    In the dark depths of the sea.
    I've never had an 'opposing lifetime' as it wasn't necessary for me. In my past, prior to belonging to the U-Bootwaffe, I was in the Handelsmarine, so I already knew ahead of time what it was like for the Merchant Sailors from the Allied nations.


    I wasn't the only HSO (Handelsschiffoffizier) - merchant ship officer, in Germany that joined the Navy and became a U-Boat commander though. There's a whole slew of others.
     

Share This Page