Is consciousness produced by the brain?

Discussion in 'SCIENTIFIC and ANECDOTAL research' started by Nightrain, Dec 19, 2011.

  1. Speedwell

    Speedwell Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    In my opinion this is to state thing too severely. We all know what happens to a dead animal after a few days or weeks, the whole thing simply rots and decays. If we are talking about returning from the dead, there has to be some quantity of reasonableness allowed, otherwise, all one is doing is setting unreasonable conditions, and then declaring "I knew it was impossible".

    In real-life cases, there have been people dead for 18 hours or maybe longer. And then, by modern techniques, brought back to life. That seems to me to be more than long enough to fit any reasonable expectation. Here's a case of being brought back to life after six hours. That is pretty astonishing, I think we have become very casual and unexcited by what would in previous centuries been sufficient to declare a miracle:
    Briton Audrey Schoeman revived after six-hour cardiac arrest
    video: The woman brought back to life after her heart stopped for six hours


    Incidently, that was reported by the BBC, who were probably happy to do so given that the woman concerned had no memory of those six hours. In the past, the BBC was more broad-minded, but these days they tend to regard any mention of surviving death as mere belief, rather than (possible) scientific fact. However here's a BBC documentary on reincarnation from 1992:
    BBC on Remembered Previous Lives
     
  2. Learninghere123

    Learninghere123 Senior Registered

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    This is a very interestinf case. She doesn't remember anything of those 6 hours though. So it would point towards the fact that without a functioning brain there's no conscious activity? I don't understand how some people have OBE or NDE but others don't. This issue seems very complicated to me. Some cases are very impressive and then others don't report any experiences at all. I don't know why I think that if she had seen anything while being technically dead, she should recall it like others do? What do you think?
     
  3. The Traveler

    The Traveler Senior Registered

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    thanks, i watch it soon when i have a lot of free time.
    and sorry if i am a lot rude, i am only trying to have a more scientific approach about the question. nothing of persona, and i am not enrage on into bad mood :).
    i didn't knew about the cases of peoples revived after so many times! D: damns, seems that the old conception that peoples die in just few minutes is to reconsiderate.
    but
    that's is one the things that much struggling me and confuse me too.
    if really exist the after life, why "only" 30% of folks with NDE see something? why for most case there is only the void? :\
    if all folks that experiment a NDE see something, well, that is not an hypotesis but is a fact. i am pretty sure that there is something over the death, but why only few persons can see that?
     
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  4. The Traveler

    The Traveler Senior Registered

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    yes the reminescences and deja vu or the tales of little childs with strange memories and talence are too amazing for be just a child fantasy. there are so many prodigal sons that have a natural talent for do something when they have just few years...
    into my case, well, i had the strong feeling on my childhood that more that learn the things i was just reviewing old notions. considering that i have the genetical syndrome of EDS, i am interested about reincarnation because i am trying to answer to the question of what i was before this life for have now a so bad disease.
    pity that i not remember nothing of useful about that.
    :( so i am searching the answer about why childrens born with genetical disorders? if they are not genetical eredity problem or trouble caused by virus, or disease of parents, the unique explanation should be the karma, i guess.
    is the motivation cause i am doing research about that and also why i am here now to seeking knowledge.
    but honestly i not know what can be the start point.
     
  5. The Traveler

    The Traveler Senior Registered

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    @Speedwell. nice interview of ian stevenson. it was a lot of talk that i want to see him. i thank you. okay, too much cases with the same evidences and similar stories. reincarnation seems really a strong possibility.
    in alternative, some cases can be explained with possession spirit of dead child (the case of the girl assassinated).
    however i noticed two things.
    - all cases are ever of peoples died murdered or with a violence death. why people with natural death are so rare into reincarnation cases? why the common person's soul is much more rare that return on earth?
    - mostly are into indian culture or into not-occidental cultures like american native. why is so hard to find cases into occidental enviroment?
    so seems really that metempsicosis is a good explanation. but is strange that seems to happen only into certain circustamces.
    as alternative i can think to possession cases of peoples died with violence that want to continue they life, probably cause they left something to do into earth. instead of be ghosts these folks take control of the mind of new childs. but the birth mark is also increbible. seems really that souls can affect dna writing.
    most incredible is the case of dead brigant rebirth as a not-jaw guy.
    well, at least that can comfort me: on my pasted life i wasn't a brigand.
     
  6. Speedwell

    Speedwell Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    She doesn't remember anything of those 6 hours though. So it would point towards the fact that without a functioning brain there's no conscious activity?

    No, that's jumping to a conclusion which is unwarranted. She doesn't remember any of the events leading up the crisis either. So following your logic, she either did not go on the hike at all (false) or she walked the entire way in a state of unconsciousness (also false).

    Amnesia caused by various traumatic events is a well-known and established medical phenomenon. When someone has no memory of what happened during a period of time, it would be a mistake to conclude that the person had no consciousness - she clearly was conscious during the hike, but does not remember it.

    Interestingly, in cases of amnesia, sometimes the missing memory gradually returns, not all at once, but gradually or in fragments. This can be weeks or months or even longer afterwards. This does sometimes happen with NDEs too, where at first a person recalls nothing, and then much later the NDE may come to the surface.

    Personally I compare it to dream recall. Often I can be having a really vivid, intense dream, but on waking, the memory of the dream can fade within a few seconds. Yet - certainly for me, and presumably for other people too, sometimes as I'm settling down to sleep the following night, as I drift away, but before actual sleep, I may remember the dream from the previous night.

    My reference to dreams may not be comparable, because often with an NDE there is some physical circumstance which causes damage to the brain function, so that the memory may not return. How memories are stored is, like consciousness, yet another mystery. It is usually assumed that memories are stored in the brain, but that may not be the case. Perhaps the brain only acts as a key to unlock the memories stored somewhere else. These are just my ideas. But we do know, from the plentiful examples of past-life recall, that memories of that previous life cannot be stored in the long-since turned to dust brain of the deceased.

    You asked about my own situation, whether I have any past life recall. The answer is yes. I wrote a little about myself here:
    http://www.reincarnationforum.com/threads/memories-of-a-different-kind.7700/
    and another:
    http://www.reincarnationforum.com/threads/veil-of-forgetfulness.8347/
     
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  7. Learninghere123

    Learninghere123 Senior Registered

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    I didn't know people with NDEs can remember later on. I understand what you mean. I thought about it and it is jumping into conclusions to be honest.

    Thank you for sharing the link to your experience! I have no memories of my own and I have tried a regression tape but it didn't work for me. It sounds amazing that people can recognise themselves in photographs or match their memories to accurate data online. Thank you again for sharing.
     
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  8. Learninghere123

    Learninghere123 Senior Registered

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  9. The Traveler

    The Traveler Senior Registered

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    insufficient data for have a definitive response.
    PRO NDE:
    - peoples can see therselves out of body
    - peoples experiments all mostly the same kind of experiences
    - they are more lucid of the reality and the standard cosciunsness state
    - the experiences follow ever the same pattern and the same things:
    (drowning feeling, darkness, OBE, tunnel of light, visions of afterworlds, meeting with other spirits, meeting with God, examination of all life experiences).
    CONTRO NDE.
    - missing objective things observable into material / physical world. there are only the word testimoniances
    - lacking of data
    - too much unknown about brain structure and functionality.
    - missing data about how and where are stored memories into the brain, IF they are stored into the brain.
    - missing data about the origin of the consciousness
    i guess we can't know at moment. also if brain stay "active" for hours into same way after the physical death.
    that's is also my horrible and more terrible fear and scary thing: that these experience are temporaney. that they are however connected to the brain and that also afterworld experience, God vision etc, will be fall into void, oblivion and darkness after few hours, one time all brain is shut down.
    how horrible perspective...
    :(
     
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  10. The Traveler

    The Traveler Senior Registered

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    however i want to make an observation: thinking that brain can have consciousness and lucid mind, memory and obsersvarion when is without any kind of activity, is not like think that a television can show images when is shut down? despite that his neural structure can be again intact or not.
     
  11. Learninghere123

    Learninghere123 Senior Registered

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    I don't understand your last question, but thank you for pointing out those things you said in your first post. I'm not sure if everyone's experiences are the same to be honest. They seem to be very particular. Also these are very rare, peopld usually don't remember any NDEs.

    I'm not sure if the brain works after a few hourse. I think it means there's a chance of resurrection without brain damage. Apparently the brain shuts down before that.

    There isn't enough data. I'm not sure how to keep researching. There aren't any new projects that I know about.

    This one might be interesting too:

     
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  12. The Traveler

    The Traveler Senior Registered

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    @Learninghere123 i explain with google translate:
    the human brain is a large organic and biological computer, one of the most complex in nature. the great extension of the cortex, its circumvolutions, its mass and the mass-to-body weight ratio higher than that of all other animals make us the sentient beings that we are. the human mind is structured in such a way as to allow mainly associative functions between concepts and ideas. a computer uses a binary system of 1's and 0's, of on-off switches to communicate. when we turn on the computer it shows us through the monitor and its operating software what it contains inside its transistors.
    in the same way, when we are awake and clear our brain shows the same things in the form of thoughts.
    the brain cannot be turned off unlike the computer. at most you can put it on standby when you sleep and there are processes of maintenance and restoration of data and memory in progress.
    a brain in cardiac arrest is like a computer that is deprived of electricity. however, both contain their information stored inside transistors or inside neurons and synapses. my metaphor is this: can the brain have thoughts organized so logically and continuously that it causes these amazing and wonderful experiences, far more vivid and elaborate than any dream, when it is devoid of any activity? the EEGs are completely flat, even if the brain cells are still alive, they do not work anyway, there is no activity and they do not communicate with each other.
    a computer when it is off cannot transmit information to the monitor, it cannot perform operations, you cannot copy, move a file from one folder to another when the pc is off, nor use it to watch a video on youtube or listen to music.
    the brain of a person in cardiac arrest is similar to a turned off PC. so how is it possible that such a movie starts to broadcast?
     
  13. Learninghere123

    Learninghere123 Senior Registered

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    I agree with you on that. The cases are very rare and even less few of them include OBE experiences that can be proved. It would be jumping into conclusions to say that because because people experience NDEs is proof that the conscious is outside the brain. I think these are anecdotal cases and it would be great if there were more studies about them to keep investigating what they are about.
     
  14. The Traveler

    The Traveler Senior Registered

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    not so rare as you think. 30% of cardiac arrest lead to NDE, OBE or some strange experience. but can't be explained why appen only to 1 person to 3. is rare cause many folks remove these memories or simply avoid to think to it, or they are just not documented by serious research. we are again at start of scientific study about afterworld and sure will get more data with time.
     
  15. 4d4m

    4d4m Active Member

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    When people have become deceased and are between lifetimes or travel out of body (same thing really) they can still think. They no longer have a brain.
     
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  16. Cyrus

    Cyrus Senior Registered

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    You've hit the nail, buddy !

    But mind it, that when one dies, a part of him/her dies irreversibly - namely, the very part of our "Me" that was managed by the physical brain.

    We are not the same in LBL, it feels differently without our physical brain.

    The consciousness is only partially defined by the soul, there is a part stored in the physical brain, that dies along with it.

    In this way we may conclude that real hundred percent immortality does NOT exist.

    IMHO.

    Regards.
     
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  17. tanker

    tanker Senior Registered

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    I'm not sure I understand ... 'forced to?' 'done intentionally?' 'prearranged systematically?' 'inflicted on a soul once they are dead?' Who by?
     
  18. Speedwell

    Speedwell Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    The results of the first AWARE study were published in 2014.
    https://www.southampton.ac.uk/news/...ear-death-experiences-study.page#.VDa5LhaOqSo.

    The full research paper from the study is currently behind a paywall, though it was available free of charge for a while. Basically it covered the immense difficulty of the task at hand. The subjects under consideration were people who were seriously ill, the primary activity was their medical care. Gathering data for the AWARE study had to be a background task, subject to ethical considerations. In the end, only a small quantity of useful data emerged from an initial much larger group of patients.

    There was one significant result, certainly not 'anecdotal' since it was fully documented and recorded according to the strict protocols of the study. This patient was able to describe his resuscitation attempts in accurate detail, as he observed from above at the corner of the room. There were other interesting findings, not all of which found their way into the research paper, but were discussed separately or in Parnia's book.

    Dr Sam Parnia has from time to time given interviews and appeared in video discussions. One article I appreciate for its level-headed approach was published in Spiegel Online.
    https://www.spiegel.de/internationa...ection-is-a-medical-possibility-a-913075.html

    These is a book variously titled "Erasing Death" or "The Lazarus Effect" depending on country.

    Other prominent researchers in the field include Dutch cardiologist Dr Pim Van Lommel and British nurse and PhD Dr Penny Sartori. Books, articles and youtube interviews with each of them help to illuminate the subject.

    As for the AWARE study, back in 2008, addressing the United Nations, no less, Dr Sam Parnia said that he thought it would take about three years to answer the question of whether or not NDEs were an illusion or real. He also said he expected it would turn out to be an illusion, and in that case there would be no need to continue. Well, research is continuing, the follow-up study AWARE II is currently in progress.

    At the very least, the idea that NDEs are just an artefact of the brain has not been substantiated, and current indications are that these are real verifiable experiences. It is this verification, by cross-checking what a patient says they saw or heard, including reading the thoughts of those present, or observing events out of sight or at a distance which is the subject of work by both Van Lommel and Sartori as well as Parnia. Their work is well worth a study.
     
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  19. Speedwell

    Speedwell Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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  20. Learninghere123

    Learninghere123 Senior Registered

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    Thank you Speedwell. I appreciate you sending the link :)
     
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  21. Blazealiste

    Blazealiste Senior Member

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    That's a worth edition for just small spending, thanks for posting that here. :)
     
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  22. Ajay0

    Ajay0 Senior Member

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    Dr. Peter Fenwick , a highly regarded neuropsychiatrist, also has something similar to say...

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/int...06/does-consciousness-exist-outside-the-brain


     
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  23. Learninghere123

    Learninghere123 Senior Registered

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  24. Speedwell

    Speedwell Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I think that NDEs are indeed natural. Perhaps what you were getting at was whether they might be explained in materialist terms? Sorry if that sounds picky, I know there are terms like 'supernatural' and so on, but even ordinary everyday consciousness cannot be explained in materialist terms. Just having the ability to be aware, to experience. Materialist science cannot explain that. How does an atom or a molecule become aware of anything?

    As for NDEs, it's important to note the veridical information obtained - acquiring knowledge during an NDE that could not be acquired through ordinary means. This in itself is a wide-ranging topic. One particular and rather narrow class of such experiences are termed 'Peak in Darien'. That is worth looking into. And remember there are other types of veridical information in NDEs too.
    Bruce Greyson article link: Seeing Dead People Not Known to Have Died: “Peak in Darien” Experiences


    As for the article, I didn't read every word, but it starts rather poorly, the opening text asserts that they are caused by " a loss of blood flow and oxygen". Sadly that completely overlooks the fact that NDEs can occur in a perfectly healthy, normally functioning body too. In some examples, simply having the expectation of impending harm, such as being in a vehicle and seeing that it is about to undergo a collision, can trigger an NDE, even when there is in the end no actual collision. I should really post examples and references, but for now I hope it is sufficient to mention that these do exist. After all, if one does not know something exists, one might not think to look for it. This is where articles in mainstream scientific publications often do a disservice to the reader. By omitting crucial information, an article can be made to appear coherent. These days, I don't look for what is contained in such articles, but what is missing.
     
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  25. The Traveler

    The Traveler Senior Registered

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    clinical NDE for what i know occurs into 30% of cardiac arrests. there is not any kind of brain activity into these moments, also if doctors doing the BLS.
    all folks victims of that, despite of their culture, religious belief, country, experiment ever the same kind of feelings also if not all all of these, mostly only few or one of these:
    - floating outside of body, looking at what is happening around, ability to see thorught walls and be aware of all happen around. ability to refers to doctors what they had seen when they come back to live.
    - the darkness with the tunnel of light.
    - the revisitation of all life experiences.
    - the meet with other souls or "God" into a light and beatiful place with music, or an garden eden, or simply a white energy foggy place.
    - see or meet with souls of dead parents or other peoples dead and close to the victim.
    - the fact that the soul, or energy entities tell that is not again the time for die etc, and they are send back.

    some case experiment a grey and sad place, like the "purgatory" some other experimented instead a vision of the "hell".
    the lack of oxygen or various brain affection can also explain the "tunnel of light" cause that vision can be stimulated also into artificial but not the others. that are not just simply allucination of pharmacus, for the simple fact that allucinations have not any kind of logical sense.
    instead that experience have a deep logical dsense and is more lucid that the awake state of brain. peoples that experiment that change totally behavour and become much more kind and loveley. the most baddest
    the most convinced atheist becomes a believer, the selfish become altruistic. many feel anger and refusal to return to the material world, so wonderful is what they have glimpsed.
    there is also the fact there is not any kind of brain area that
    be the seat of consciousness or memory. it seems that these phenomena reside outside the brain and that the brain is a kind of transceiver of them. basically, it is as if in material life we control the body remotely using it as an earthly avatar. on the other hand, since we have control of the body in this sense, we have the illusion of being inside our head.

    these last things I am saying, however, are hypotheses, personally I have never read scientific studies that verify them. there may be other explanations for NDEs, but I don't know of.
    Brain cells need some hours to die also after physioligical death.
    the materialistic explanaion is simply that "mind" is the effect of collective team work of neuron cells. but if is on that why, why a
    a brain expecting a cardiac arrest, which as such could not expect any form of mentality or consciousness, expriment with the NDE?
     
  26. Speedwell

    Speedwell Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Yes, this is true. Dr Sam Parnia has talked and written extensively about that. It should be understood that what this refers to is the ability of a person to be successfully resuscitated after a cardiac arrest. It doesn't mean the brain is active or 'alive' as a whole. For example a person may be caught in a snowstorm or fall into icy water. Under these conditions, as well as the stopping of the heart, all biological functions come to a halt, there is no brain activity. But the individual brain cells are preserved by the cold temperature, just as we preserve food in a fridge. At normal temperatures, the cells begin to die and decay more rapidly.
     
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  27. The Traveler

    The Traveler Senior Registered

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    Exactly, you explained that much more better then me :)
    another nice analogy is a computer.
    when you shut down the computer it contains however into the hard disk alls the data and broadcard intacts, but you cannot see informations into monitor if you not switch on your pc. so...
    why folks on NDE continue to have their monitor and mind active, if their "hard disk" is switch off? o_O

    So, well folks experiments NDE when brain is shut down. how is possible if mind is a product of the brain activity? the unique explanation are 2:
    1 - Mind is not a product of brain, and is stored else where.
    2 - Mind transfer itself into istant way to another destination if happen a shut down of host body.
     
  28. Learninghere123

    Learninghere123 Senior Registered

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    I'm not familiar with cases in which people report being aware of things really happening around them while they're unconcious. I read that Sam Parnia did a test putting images high up in the ceiling and people reporting NDEs didn't seen them when they woke up afterwards. Am I wrong?

    I understand that it's a difficult topic to prove, but I guess the very low incidence of remarkable cases is very disencoraging. Most of the NDEs that I read about sound like dreams or hallucinations to me, but that's just my opinion. I guess the peak Darien could be a good way to prove them, but those patientes could have heard nurses or other patients talking about these other deceased people and incorporate it to their dreaming, and then report it as a vision of a deceased person. I find it all very confusing to be honest.

    I appreciate your input! Thank you both :)
     
  29. Speedwell

    Speedwell Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    On a technicality you are correct. However, of the small number of patients who survived cardiac arrest and were willing and able to be interviewed, none had an NDE while they were in a location where there were any pictures. For example a patient might have been in a corridor, or travelling in an ambulance, or some other part of the hospital at the time. When they described their surroundings, they could not be expected to mention the pictures, because there were none to be seen.

    On the other hand one patient in particular described the process of his rescuscitation in detail, as he observed it from above, at a time when his heart was not beating and there was not enough blood flow to the brain to enable consciousness. This case was included in the official report of the AWARE study.

    Another patient actually read the private thoughts taking place in the mind of one of the doctors who was treating him at the time. That one was not mentioned in the official report, which had a narrow scope, but Dr Sam Parnia has described it elsewhere. It is really worth reading Parnia's book if you'd like a deeper knowledge of the background, I think I've given details in a previous post.

    Also, when you say "I'm not familiar with cases in which people report being aware of things really happening around them while they're unconcious. " there was a book I previously pointed to, containing over a hundred such cases.

    I'm getting the feeling this topic doesn't really interest you very much since you haven't followed up on previous information.
     
  30. Learninghere123

    Learninghere123 Senior Registered

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    Oh not at all! I am interested in the topic and followed all the links you sent and I really appreciate you sending them, Speedwell. Unfortunately, I have not been able to buy the books you've mentioned yet. I usually look for information on the Internet because I'm on a budget to be honest.

    Thanks for elaborating on the technicality that you mentioned. I didn't know that was the reason why the images on the wall didn't work. I'll keep researching for sure and I hope you are still open to share your knowledge in this topic :)
     

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