Reality and Quantum Mechanics

Discussion in 'SCIENTIFIC and ANECDOTAL research' started by stardis, Apr 29, 2009.

  1. stardis

    stardis Senior Registered

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    There seems to be more writing available lately about the interplay of quantum mechanics with biology. The interesting thing about this seeming surge in interest is that, I think, most people are going to just accept the idea more and more that reality is defined by the observation of fundamental sub-atomic particles. Maybe another way to say that and one that I like better, is that consciousness creates.

    The "seeming surge" in interest about the fundamental aspects of reality is a bit misleading because I think it is an area of interest that has been growing for decades and we are just becoming more aware of it because it is becoming more main stream science. Experimental methodology for observing quantum effects is being refined to the point where someday science will, I think, have proven to most people's satisfaction that reality is not at all what it appears but is something which we all, at times, have suspected it may be. Reality may indeed be the consciousness created hologram upon which we play and experience existence together as beings of light - sound far-fetched? What do you think about the growing importance of quantum mechanics in scientific articles? Is this the crescendo leading to enlightenment?

    Michael Prescott's blog has an interesting entry about this in which he talks about a new book and whether, as the author's postulate, biology creates reality or as Michael seems to prefer consciousness creates reality. It is an interesting blog post and I found it worthwhile reading.

    I then read the Discover magazine article "Is Quantum Mechanic's Controlling Your Thoughts?" which is also a great article on biological process that are thought to be interacting in a quantum mechanical manner to achieve their purpose. The last section of the article is about the consciousness and the mind which is well worth reading - as is the entire article.
     
  2. Alexnovo

    Alexnovo Senior Registered

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    Stardis, Fascinating article. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. I was struck by this statement;

    I agree with Prescott, that it is unfortunate that Lanza and Berman are sticking solely to a biological materialist view of consciousness when it seems to run counter to what the rest of their theory is. As Prescott puts it,

    It seems that old materialistic orthodoxies die just as hard as other orthodoxies. But I suspect that the evidence is mounting to such an extent that there soon will be a shift in mainstream scientific thought. I have noticed that in order to save the basic materialistic view of the universe, many scientists are turning to what were once non-mainstream ideas. I recently read this article in Discover Magazine about how many are, in order to explain the anthropic principal, turning to the idea that there are an infinite number of parallel universes [so what if our universe seems improbably fine tuned for life, because as there are an infinite number of universes, one like ours, no matter how improbable, had to be created.]


    I personally believe in multiple universes and am delighted the idea is now being seriously explored. My point however, is that while more and more physicists are asking the right questions, I think they are doing so, in a vain attempt to prove the old orthodoxies right. However, with each question asked, and each partial answer found they are moving further and further away from a universe completely made up of matter and closer to one that accepts the idea of a consciousness independent of matter. To me this is its own kind of “tangled hierarchy.”
     
  3. stardis

    stardis Senior Registered

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    Thanks for the link to the multiple universes article, Alex. I love to read these sort of articles. I am trying to listen to the great link you provided to the

    but I am being constantly interrupted.
    Well put, Alex. When people accept the idea of consciousness independent from matter as being the reality of our existence then, I would think, the idea of reincarnating into this physical world wouldn't seem so impossible either. If mankind would think about having to reincarnate back to a world still embroiled in wars and suffering from the effects of pollution then maybe we could truly become an enlightened society in the physical plane of existence.


    What kind of changes would mankind and the planet undergo if we all realized that "what we sow, we shall reap" is true in a very real literal sense?
     
  4. Artzab

    Artzab AS2

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    What I find most amazing about quantum physics is that it even exists as a science. I had weird experiences in 2003/2004 and honestly wanted to brush everything aside. But, in the end, curiosity got the best of me and I came across A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking in the summer of 2005 and researched more about physics, cosmology and started even philosophizing about the idea. Is it weird to anyone here that quantum physics was the first thing that made sense to me?
     
  5. Yong

    Yong New Member

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    Yes, that's very weird, because as far as I know, quantum physics doesn't make sense to anyone else, especially the physicists. But since it makes sense to you, perhaps you can explain it to the rest of us, like the nonsensical results in the double slit experiments.


    I fail to see any connection between quantum physics and "consciousness creates" (whatever that means). I don't "create" you by looking at you; all your features (physical, emotional, or spiritual) I had nothing to do in creating it. I merely "force" you to take a determinate shape, size, etc. by observation just as looking at the slits in the double slit experiments does not "create" electrons, but merely force them to take a particle-like behavior rather than wave-like behavior. If those scientists are actually "creating" electrons this way, tell them to start creating something else, say a particle with different mass, different charge, etc. Can't? Why not?
     
  6. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

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    Hi Yong,

    A quote by Xenophanes, a man who who lived six centuries before Christ I find to be compelling. This was long before science.

    There are a lot of books that discuss what "consciousness creates" means - if you're interested. ;) Let me know I'll post a few for you.

    There are many mystics and Prophets that understand - putting it to words however - a difficult endeavor.
     
  7. Artzab

    Artzab AS2

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    I'd love to know the titles of some books that discusses the meaning of consciousness creates. if you wouldn't mind sharing a few titles, that would be awesome. :)


    That's interesting that there are mystics and prophets that understood physics. are there any mystics or prophets who wrote anything down during their time? Just thinking it would be interesting to hear what they know, to see if anything sounds familiar to me or if I can learn anything from them. :)
     
  8. stardis

    stardis Senior Registered

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    Hello Artzab.


    Have you read The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot? It is very readable and would give you something to think about regarding consciousness and reality.


    Another interesting book is The Self-Aware Universe: How consciousness creates the material world by physicist Amit Goswami


    An interesting web site with many interesting things to read is TWM reference index.


    Here is something interesting describing the Quantum Enigma - which is the name of a book. Here is a quote from the book description: "The most successful theory in all of science—and the basis of one third of our economy—says the strangest things about the world and about us. Can you believe physical reality to be created by our observation of it? Physicists were forced to this conclusion, the quantum enigma, by what they observed in their laboratories."
     
  9. Artzab

    Artzab AS2

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    I have heard of the book, but haven't read it yet. I've listened to some people talk about it on youtube and it sounds like a very interesting read. Thanks for reminding me about it. :)


    I've heard of Amit's work, as well, but didn't know he also studied consciousness. Pretty cool. Thanks for all the info. I really appreciate it. :)
     
  10. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

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    Hi Artzab,


    Perhaps the books section would be a place to start? Physics & Science Books (A to Z By Author)


    In particular Bruce Lipton's The Biology Of Belief: Unleashing The Power Of Consciousness, Matter And Miracles
     
  11. djwray

    djwray New Member

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    I have my own document (PowerPoint) about reincarnation which includes references to the role of quantum mechanics. You might consider it to be long-winded but hopefully some people will find it rewarding. It describes the brain as a quantum computer that executes functions surrounding the brain.


    http://www.atotalawareness.com/atotalawareness.pps


    PS I am looking for suggestions about how the document (and the website) can be improved. :)


    Peace


    D J
     
  12. ChrisR

    ChrisR Administrator Emeritus Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Hi DJ, welcome to the forum :)


    I'm sure it's an interesting document that you've written, but unfortunately, the link you gave doesn't work for me, I just get this: Error 404: NOT FOUND!


    Your browser cannot find the document corresponding to the URL you typed in.
     
  13. stardis

    stardis Senior Registered

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    Hi, DJ.


    I've looked at your website and it sounds interesting but, I would prefer reading your theory in the browser and not in an office application on my computer. The website looks nice.


    Additionally:


    I went to another computer where I have Office software and looked through your presentation (too much to simply read and digest at one sitting) -- well done. Where are you going with this? A lot of work has gone into this, obviously, but to what end?


    Being a little bit familiar with Object Oriented Programming, I found your ideas interesting and I will have to re-visit them.
     
  14. djwray

    djwray New Member

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    Thanks for your comments stardis. I fully agree with your point about office vs browser and there is no doubt that others will think the same way. If I am to use an alternative to PowerPoint I would like to at least keep it well formatted.


    To what end? I don't know. At the moment I feel that it's something I need to do. Maybe my subconscious mind is telling me that this is an opportunity to make a worthwhile contribution. It started out as a simple desire to explain a complex personal problem in the hope that it would provide me with some kind of closure. To that end I documented my explanation of the problem as well as I could. That document evolved into a document about human interaction and the role of God in human thought processes, which in turn evolved into a document about reincarnation.


    D J


    http://www.atotalawareness.com/documents/atotalawareness.pps
     
  15. djwray

    djwray New Member

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    Ouch! :butbut: Sorry Chris. Here is the correct location:


    http://www.atotalawareness.com/documents/atotalawareness.pps
     
  16. Eevee

    Eevee Administrator Emeritus Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I have little understanding of quantum mechanics. I started reading Amit Goswami's book 4 times, and I must admit every time I got a bit further in my reading, but I still have to give up after a while. :)


    But I often pondered on the question : did the quantum world not exist before people became conscious of it, I mean during the time when everybody thought that an atom was the smallest undividible part that existed? Did men create the quantum world by wondering if it could exist? Maybe it's a silly question, but for me it is something that I am still thinking about. :)


    Eevee
     
  17. stardis

    stardis Senior Registered

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    I'm not real smart about this but, I think that the pattern for everything is the result of The Creator's or the Conscious Universe's thought patterns. (I don't think that I could ever explain this satisfactorily.) We, as individual bits of consciousness, participate in the thought pattern by "seeing" and "experiencing" this energy pattern as a physical existence. The pattern for the universe has existed since the beginning (whenever or whatever that was) and we are "experiencing" it now - together.


    I think that quantum mechanics is a reflection of the folding and unfolding of the energy pattern that sustains what we observe as the physical universe that we inhabit. Perhaps the energy pattern is our "reality" all the way back to the Original Consciousness.


    Just my opinion and I may change it tomorrow. :)
     
  18. Truthseeker

    Truthseeker Former Moderator

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    If a tree falls in the woods and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?


    No - the "sound" is nothing more than an energy wave in the quantum hologram that is interpreted by your consciousness as sound. If there is no one present to receive this energy wave and interpret it, then there is no sound. In fact, one could argue that if there is no one there to see the tree, then there is no tree. :confused:


    This is an interesting topic. In glad it was brought up. Eventually I'd like to read more on this subject.
     
  19. Nightrain

    Nightrain Senior Registered

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  20. Kalos

    Kalos Senior Registered

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    I haven't read that book but looks quite interesting and most certainly will. Although quantum mechanics is my field and light fascinates me, I had never considered what you describe above - from a philosophical point of view. Thank you for that :)

    By the way, light doesn't travel. I mean, it certainly seems that it does when we "take measurements" using space and time and all these (fine) classic physics - but light itself doesn't experience space, or time for that matter. Going a bit deeper, light doesn't exist until it interacts. Complies with what you said above if I interpreted that correctly.
     
  21. baro-san

    baro-san Senior Member

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    I suppose you know what you're talking about when you claim "light doesn't travel", still the speed of light in vacuum is exactly 299,792,458 meters per second.
     
  22. Cyrus

    Cyrus Senior Registered

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    I can't see how light can "experience" space, time or anything else. Suppose there's a supernova some 100 light years from us out there, that has just exploded. We'll know about that explosion only after some 100 years. The light front, that carries this information for us, is travelling in all directions from the explosion right now: there are regions - closest to the supernova - that have already been informed about the explosion, and there are regions that haven't, because the light from the explosion has not yet arrived to them. If this is not travelling through space, then what is it?

    If an electron is travelling through an empty space, we can measure the electric and magnetic fields it generates as it passes - in a classical case. In a quantum case every measurement will perturb the electron so drastically, that it will no longer move on as it did before measurement. In case of a photon, we can measure its scaterring from some "obstacle" on the way, which will also perturb its motion so as to change it drastically. Quantum mechanics tells us that such a drastic perturbance is unavoidable. In a classical case there are myriads of photons in a beam moving, and if only a few of them hit the "obstacle", the rest will continue moving on as before. But if there is only, say, one photon per second, it either interacts with the "obstacle" and we "see" it, or it does not interact, so it remains invisible for us to all effects. There simply can NOT be LESS light in the "shadow" in this case. Only statistics can tell us, what's "really" happening.

    We can be perfectly sure that an undetected photon exists, because we generated it previously and sent it along that path through space. If it weren' we, then, who knows?
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
  23. Kalos

    Kalos Senior Registered

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    I don't want to hijack the thread away from its topic (the book), in brief though, just to politely try and clarify. Like I said above, "it certainly seems that it does (move) when we "take measurements" using space and time". That's all fundamental Newtonian Physics and it's just fine as long as we don't want to deal with quantum "approaches" and using "local" and "closed" frames of reference. Problem is (apart from quantum effects being there all around us) that there is no absolutely "local" and/or "closed" frame of reference to be found in the universe, as universe itself as a whole is infinite and open.

    I would be more than happy to discuss it in a thread of its own :)
     
  24. Kalos

    Kalos Senior Registered

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    Let's make a thread and talk about it :)
     
  25. Kalos

    Kalos Senior Registered

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    A big thanks to the kind Moderator, whoever that was, for creating a new thread about it! :)

    Cyrus, I don't disagree with anything you said, just offering a somewhat alternative approach. Before anything else, it goes without saying that I don't consider myself the Bearer of the One and Only Truth :D I'm just pondering and talking about it, is all. If I had the answers and proof to go with them, my name would be up there alongside Bohr, Schrodinger and Heisenberg - maybe above them :D

    I also dislike what I'll do below, commenting on parts of your post separately, but as I essentially do not disagree with anything you said, I do it in a good way. It's not challenging you phrase by phrase, not at all, but rather using them as stepping stones to build my case.

    I agree that for light to "experience" something, it must qualify as an entity or manifestation of one. So either a bad use of English from my part or I indeed consider it so, for which I have no proof - so I can't argue on that, except if I claim "Light told me so" (laughing now) which would end this conversation prematurely and quite frankly, it's not the case! Light doesn't talk to me :) and hope it stays that way!

    For the supernova scenario you mention. Yes, something travels places at the speed of light - but it's information, not light itself. I'll leave it at that but can expand if needed.

    Electrons are particles (not really but let's pretend they always are) and move at 1/100 the speed of light. Absolutely agree on everything else.

    Not saying it doesn't seem that way but this is already a little strange, because photons are not particles in the classic way:
    They have no (rest) mass
    They have no charge
    Move always at a constant speed (they do not accelerate until they reach it, they fundamentally move at that speed from time zero)
    They do not decay
    They exchange energy with material objects only in quantized amounts

    So really, what are they? As they sometimes behave like (EM) waves and sometimes like particles, we can attribute them a dual nature and be done with them! Good enough. Not.
    Photons are not the only ones doing that of course, electrons and all other quantum particles have the same behavior. Problem with photons is, what the heck are they? No mass, no charge, travel at the universal speed limit from the moment they are created, do not decay, exchange energy only in predetermined quantities, they do not "burn" energy or lose momentum to "move" and can go on for all eternity if left alone.

    Einstein wrote:
    "We have two contradictory pictures of reality; separately neither of them fully explains the phenomena of light, but together they do."
    Emphasis on two contradictory pictures of reality

    Absolutely agree. So in other words, for anything to exist (be observable) it takes light. For any measurement to be made, it takes light. For any information to be transferred, it takes light. It is proven that the very act of measurement, alters what is being measured. Which brings me to the next quote below:

    The photon surely exists, but does anything else exist? :)
     
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  26. Cyrus

    Cyrus Senior Registered

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    Hi, Kalos:

    I'm afraid, in this way we'd end up in some philosophy, as it looks a lot like David Hume to me (or, maybe, even like George Berkeley):

    ...Do the wheels of my car exist while I'm not looking at them?...

    I'm not against philosophy - if I lived 1000 years (in one lifetime), I'd like to retire to one of those beautiful Greek islands and dedicate the rest of my life to the study of Plotinus.

    Now, my objective is more practical: I expressed my problem in one of my first messages here, and I want to understand better, what's the matter with those sensations I described there. As I only got a purely technical education, it's imposible for me to use things like meditation - they simply don't work with me. I tried hypnosis, but with zero effect - I'm just too skeptical for this. So, the next step I 'd like to make, is to read that book that MereDreamer discovered, and to try to discuss it with him, as it looks like he's the one that I understand best on this forum. It's all about my inability to understand all those non-technical concepts that all you folks operate with so easily here, but for me they are like japanese.

    Smth. like this, more or less.

    Sorry, if I caused you any inconveniences.

    Wish you all the best.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
  27. Kalos

    Kalos Senior Registered

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    Hey Cyrus,

    All I did was state scientific facts and questions, it's quantum mechanics, purely technical and not at all philosophical. It may seem so because our current level of "science" can't offer satisfactory answers so what's the easy way out? "God said so, God did it that way" or maybe some spirits or voodoo magic. I didn't say anything like that though, I'm all against it and as I understand you are as well so we're on the same page here probably. I'm sorry I couldn't be of help.

    If you're interested in quantum physics (or other advanced scientific stuff) anyway, this youtube channel (PBS Spacetime) is also purely and strictly scientific:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7_gcs09iThXybpVgjHZ_7g

    I would also highly recommend (to anyone reading this) The Science Asylum:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXgNowiGxwwnLeQ7DXTwXPg

    ..but only if one wants to wonder about the statement "the squirrel does not fall (off a tree) because of gravity but because its future is on the ground"
    And that's not even coming from quantum physics, it's coming from general relativity. Surely not from philosophy. Or.. maybe it is..

    Last but not least, if you ever plan on visiting a greek island I'll be more than happy to offer some info ahead of time (as I'm Greek) :) so I might be helpful on something maybe!

    I wish you all the best in your life journey as well!
     
  28. Cyrus

    Cyrus Senior Registered

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    That's what Google Translate gives:

    "Hello everyone, I recently found a tempting site with movies and serials. For the sake of the site was true all that I was interested. I recommend - it will certainly come in handy"
    "you can watch Deadpool 2 online right here."

    Pirated movies, surely with Russian subtitles, or directly translated into Russian. How does it connect to what we are discussing here?
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
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  29. Junior

    Junior New Member

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    I am new to this forum, so hello to any members who happen to read my first post.

    This is exactly the subject I wish to discuss with the members here.
    I have formulated a model of physical reality based on Quantum physics and general relativity. The model differs from the standard model of physics only in the interpretation of the results of physical experiments, not the results themselves. The model incorporates the pre-existence of consciousness before everything else which happens in the universe as being intrinsic to the model as a whole. The model accommodates the the whole concept of the reincarnation of the soul as being a reality. I can describe the different mechanisms of the model in more detail in later posts. However, in the meantime I wish only to describe the conclusions reached by the model. The proposed model represents an entirely unique holistic theory on the true nature of physical reality and can therefore only be fully understood by incorporating and comprehending the model as a whole.

    This means that in the meantime, the reader is required to suspend disbelief and accept a number of assumptions inherent in the conclusions as described, as being true. My competence at maths does not allow me to present the reader with the necessary mathematical equations which would describe the physical geometry of the model. [ The theory can only be described mathematically in terms of spherical harmonies and is completely outwith my present area of knowledge of this subject]. The only proof I have of the validity of this theory is that if you accept the premises as being correct, it explains every natural physical phenomena which occurs in the universe.

    The model postulates that a specific physical event occurred in a 'parent' universe which caused the Big Bang event of our own observable 'child' universe. The specific physical event in the parent universe which caused the BB can only be performed and executed by a conscious living organism. The original physical event created a void at a specific coordinate in the parent universe. The particular physical circumstances in the parent universe which created the void wholly determines the velocity of the propagation of the radiation into the vacuum of free space which is emitted by the BB event.

    The model postulates that the void which created the BB, is represented by a sphere in the child universe which has a specific diameter of 1 Planck length. This specific dimension determines the velocity of the outward propagation of the gravity wave through the vacuum of free space which was created by and originates from the point coordinate of the BB void. The subsequent expanding gravity wave created by the creation of the void folds free space back in on itself by 180 degrees in increments of 1 Planck length per 1 Planck second in the direction of the source of the gravity wave - which in turn determines the value of 1 Planck second relative to the child universe [and therefore the specific relative Planck constant as a unit of time and space of that universe].

    The radial velocity of the propagation of the gravity wave outward into free space emitted by the BB, is restricted by the period of time it takes to fold the vacuum of free space by one complete Planck length. This equates as 1 Planck length of movement every 1 Planck second = the speed of light, c. This results in the creation of notional shells which expand in diameter [from the source nucleus of the gravity wave] in increments of 2 planck lengths for every 1 Planck second. The escape velocity of each subsequent notional Planck shell decreases as the diameter increases. Also the notional rotational velocity of any given Planck sphere decreases as a ratio of the distance from the nucleus source increases. A Planck shell can only form when the rotational escape velocity equals an integer of the speed of light. At this velocity, time and space exist in synchronicity. The synchronous relationship between Planck time and Planck length represents the metronome which determines the formation of matter at the Planck scale.

    The fundamental sub-atomic particles of matter are formed from the inside out in Planck shell increments. Since it takes a specific period of Planck time for any given notional Planck shell to form, the delay determines both the radius and the age of the shell [relative to the source]. After 137 billion years of expansion since the moment of the BB, we presently exist on a Planck shell where the sum total of possible combinations of wavelengths allows for a complexity of different size structures which accommodates and supports physical configurations and chemical reactions compatible with living beings.

    I will continue this post later as I am going to bed. I invite any comments on what I have written so far.
     
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  30. Kalos

    Kalos Senior Registered

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    Welcome Junior, you have my full attention.
     

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