Reincarnation vs. Pure Consciousness.

Discussion in 'Reincarnation Questions' started by Oraktoraeneo, Jan 13, 2007.

  1. Oraktoraeneo

    Oraktoraeneo 'He Who Brings Light'

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    Hello, I am new...and am a believer in Reincarnation (otherwise I wouldn't be here).

    My question for this board is, are there similarities with reincarnation and the idea that all creation is all purely consciousness? To be a little more concise, I mean that reincarnation stems from the core idea that WE are souls first and our bodies second. We traverse the physical universe from one body to the next aiding the world(s) we incarnate on and excel in our personal, spiritual growth. However, there is another way of "seeing it" that I have found that says that all of existence is a pure string of [God] consciousness, and our bodies are just that...we ARE our bodies, just products of an ever evolving course of life and there isn't a self to speak of.

    My REAL question is then, does reincarnation fit into this idea - are they compatible - or are they like I think, that they could be the last thing that spiritual humanity might never really agree on?
     
  2. MoonDansyr

    MoonDansyr Senior Registered

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    Welcome Oraktoraeneo.

    There are varied views and opinions regarding your question. Have you read any of the posts in our Science Section? I think you may find some posts very interesting and linked to your post here.
     
  3. Oraktoraeneo

    Oraktoraeneo 'He Who Brings Light'

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    I have not...though I will. Thanks.
     
  4. buntaro

    buntaro Senior Registered

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    Oraktoraeneo,

    You asked,

    "... are there similarities with reincarnation and the idea that all creation is all purely consciousness?"

    --> Yes. The two ideas compliment each other quite nicely.

    "I mean that reincarnation stems from the core idea that WE are souls first and our bodies second."

    --> That is a solid part of my belief system.

    "...we ARE our bodies, just products of an ever evolving course of life and there isn't a self to speak of."

    --> I wonder if you are getting into the non-self theories. There is a Buddhist theory that there is no soul of any kind. I personally do not ascribe to that theory. However, if you do ascribe to that theory, you must take it to its inevitable conclusion -- that nothing here exists, neither bodies, souls, or selves.

    "...does reincarnation fit into this idea...?"

    --> Reincarnation fits both ideas.

    "...or are they like I think, that they could be the last thing that spiritual humanity might never really agree on?"

    --> I am afraid that we will not see any agreement in this area for a long time.
     
  5. Oraktoraeneo

    Oraktoraeneo 'He Who Brings Light'

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    I don't submit to the Buddhist idea of no-self. My comment was asking how reincarnation might fit into it, because I 'worry' that if there isn't a self, there isn't a me. I pride myself, when I feel to, in being myself. I am a Scorpio in this life and feel that that part of my Self allows me what I need to serve the world and knowing that it is there, at all, is nice to know.

    Pardon if all of that seemed...erratic. ::grins::
     
  6. buntaro

    buntaro Senior Registered

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    Oraktoraeneo,

    This is a very complicated topic, and if you want to, we can get into it. However, for now, let me just ask this: If there is no self, what is it that reincarnates?

    "My comment was asking how reincarnation might fit into it...."

    --> IMHO, the only way it can fit is if one embraces the concept that nothing exists, even the self.

    "...because I 'worry' that if there isn't a self, there isn't a me. I pride myself, when I feel to, in being myself."

    --> Well, this takes us to the other side of the debate. There is a theory that, one day, the part of us that feels pride will disappear. This, too, is an invaluable part of my belief system.

    "Pardon if all of that seemed...erratic."

    --> Not at all. You are grappling with a very difficult concept. Keep up the good work.
     
  7. Oraktoraeneo

    Oraktoraeneo 'He Who Brings Light'

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    We don't need to get into any kind of talk, or debate...I know what you are saying. I do realize that for reincarnation to work, there has to be something, but it's just 'my' hang-up.

    And my pride only exists on a level that it's like a badge of honor. But, I would take it at any time.
     
  8. ssake

    ssake Senior Registered

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    Dear Oraktoraeano,

    What's the origin of your screen name? Interesting sounding word.

    The answer to your question is, first of all, something that's obviously beyond my personal knowledge and experience; and secondly, what I understand of it would take a long, long post. It would be easier and more accurate to go to my main source, "God Speaks" by Meher Baba; or, if you prefer, online, you can get a synopsis of the main ideas at this link (given originally as a meditation):

    http://discoursesbymeherbaba.org/v2-138.php

    I'll be glad to try to answer any questions, and I'm sorry if anyone feels I'm copping out (or worse-yet, proscetylizing). The answer in a nutshell as I understand it is that it is through the process of reincarnation that consciousness is gradually produced, culminating in full consciousness in the human form. Thereafter it is a matter of removing and untangling the vast accumulation of mental impressions which serve to veil this consciousness from the Truth. Consciousness is the sole product and purpose of creation/evolution, culminating in the Realization of God or Truth.

    Best,
    Steve S.
     
  9. Oraktoraeneo

    Oraktoraeneo 'He Who Brings Light'

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    Understood, ssake...

    But, what about after us? Evolution doesn't end with us, at least, I don't think. THIS is one of the few ideas that gives me a hard time; I don't know how to put us on the map of the history of the world. We are something that the world has not yet seen before, and through some sort of discovery of self, or previous knowledge, we have KNOWN this for a long time and have molded our spirituality out of this concept.

    My whole point to this post is that I want to know why I am "different" from the rest of my world. I do not relate completely to my world, and feel that there must be something that I cannot see or feel that is the answer of this. My spiritual quest has taken me down many roads: Otherkin, Starseeds, Indigo Children, etc...and all of it hasn't panned out completely. But, through all of it, all I have wanted to know is why do I care about the affairs of other things than myself, or not wish to see innocent people die just because some extremists tore down our towers...

    ::grins to self:: Hm, that's me...I suppose. Reincarnation is important to me, because it might answer some things, but who knows? Anyway...['Oh_rock_toe_rain_yo'], it means "he who brings light." My ex gave it to me; it's her native language, Tualapan. (I don't recommend looking for it, you wouldn't find it.) :-D
     
  10. buntaro

    buntaro Senior Registered

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    Oraktoraeneo,

    You said,

    "...I want to know why I am "different" from the rest of my world."

    --> Just to let you know, I feel quite different than the people around me. It is rare, indeed, when I find people who think like me.
     
  11. tanguerra

    tanguerra Moderator Emeritus

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    Hi Oraktoraeano. Welcome.

    I know what you mean about searching for answers. Some of us just seem to be more curious than others about the nature of the universe and meaning of life don't they? You have stumbled into a great place to have this type of discussion. I used to feel very isolated and felt there were few people to really discuss this type of issue with before I found these wonderful people here.

    How does reincarnation fit in with the notion that 'reality' is all 'illusion' - 'a string of God consciousness' as you put it?

    Here is a metaphor for you:-

    I don't see the individual spirit hopping from one body to the next, one life to the next, like a hermit crab. I see the soul as vast and eternal and the individual lives we experience as the illusion of separateness that we use to understand important issues, interact with each other, learn things, grow, and in general just 'have something to do' with eternity as opposed to our existence on the 'being' level which is not concerned with the material world, the passing of time or the trials and tribulations of emotions and such things.

    I see each life as a bit like a movie that we sit down to watch for our lifetime. While we are watching the movie we become enthralled in it, laugh, cry, scream and clutch the arm rests, enjoy the suspense of wondering how it will turn out. We lose interest and attention in what is going on outside the movie theater. In fact if we think about that too much we will spoil the experience of the movie. When the movie is finished we stretch and yawn and go off and do something else.

    Now there are some of us who are not content just to sit politely and watch the movie. We want to know how it is done, we want to understand how the projector works and what is behind the screen and how the special effects are achieved. That is all fine and good. Sometimes this can enhance our enjoyment of the movie while we wonder at the skill and artistry that has gone into create this amazing illusion. Sometimes it can completely distract us so that we might miss important plot points. Always remember, although it might all be an illusion at one level and we don't fully understand why, we are incarnated into this life to live it, and we should try to keep our focus on it at least most of the time.

    How does reincarnation work with our individual existence as a part of the greater entity which is God (however you conceive her)?

    Another metaphor (sorry, but this type of thing is really best explained using metaphors):-

    My personal belief is that 'everything' is God (however you conceive her) or even different levels of various 'gods' (entities, the force, dark matter, light, love, vibrations, energy, call it whatever you like it doesn't bother me) - the multiverse, the stars, the teacups, the ants, the daisies and the people. All of these elements are elements of the 'I-am-that-I-am' just as the cells in my body are elements of me - skin, bone, fingernails, hair, synapses... I run around doing things that my cells would have no possible conception of or hope of understanding - boiling an egg, falling in love, catching a cab. My cells are born and die quite quickly in comparison to my lifespan. To my cells, I would probably appear 'godlike'. To themselves the cells no doubt have a very high opinion of their own individuality and so they should and why not indeed. They are all individuals, of course, even if perhaps somewhat less complex than the sum of the parts that make up 'me' and having absolutely no idea what 'my' purpose is and what I am 'up to' in life. And so it goes on, upwards and downwards in ever repeating microcosms and macrocosms.

    I hope this helps. Am I way off track or is this the sort of thing you are pondering?

    Do you have any interesting reincarnation stories you would like to share? You say you believe in reincarnation - why?
     
  12. tiltjlp

    tiltjlp A Recycled Soul

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    Welcome to the forum Oraktoraeneo. You ask some tough but interesting questions. While I don't have any answers, I wonder if maybe the reason you haven't found the answers you seek is that you have been looking outside yourself. There seem to be any number of ways to access your inner self, but the one I use is simple meditation, which I've done for over fifty years. In doing so I have found not only insights and both personal and spiritual growth, but also peace. While there are still a lot of unanswered questions in my life, I've found that searching inward has provided me what I’ve needed so far, and that maybe I don't need all those other answers. Maybe what holds many of us back is that we focus on our human side more than we should. By tapping into our spiritual side, some of those questions may become less important.

    John
     
  13. Green26

    Green26 Senior Registered

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    Hi Oraktoraeano,

    I can understand your curiosity as I have been asking myself the same questions. I would recommend reading the Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot is you haven't done so already as he provides a lot of insight into the things you are wondering about and also gives a lot of other references in the book which are suggestive of the holographic theory.

    The way I see it is similar to Tanguerra's view. I do not subscribe to the Buddhist view that the consciousness that reincarnates is something that barely resembles our consciousness during our waking state in life & that once reborn we will barely resemble the person we once were. I believe this because it is common for many phobias, afflictions, behavioral traits etc to be carried over into the next life and you will find many examples of that on this forum.

    In regards to the concept of self being an illusion, yes and no. Michael Talbot uses a very good analogy in the holographic universe describing the concept of the self as a small diamond shape in the pattern of a carpet. The diamond shape is an individual as are the many other diamond shapes in the carpet but they are all part of the greater whole i.e. the entire floor of carpet.

    Therefore, like tanguerra I believe that we are all part of the greater being but we are still individuals at the same time. You will find the same thing being described by many near death experiencers who discover that they are part of the greater whole yet still aware of their individual consciousness.

    I suppose what this all means is that everything in the universe is interconnected and interdependent.
     
  14. Oraktoraeneo

    Oraktoraeneo 'He Who Brings Light'

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    To all of you, thank you...

    I think that the reason that I quest is because I had something that mattered to me, that I could look out to and it would give me something to look forward to in myself. However, the person that led us was corrupt...and I couldn't do it any more.

    I...want that again, but on my own terms. All I want - and this may be my principle issue - is to have something Real that pertains to the things that I have seen and experienced.

    AND the reason that I believe in reincarnation is that I feel that "age of soul" in regards to experience is important. For me, it's an answer to why I may be different; that inside, I am older than most of those around me and that wisdom might come from it. I know in the end it doesn't matter, but...well, I don't know.

    Heh...as I said before, thank you...
     
  15. Deborah

    Deborah Executive Director Staff Member

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    Fyi

    Hi Oraktoraeneo,

    You might enjoy the work of Gregg Braden. He has teamed up with Dr. Bruce Lipton and they are lecturing all over the world. I recommend them both.

    The Divine Matrix and The Biology of Belief in Australia, Germany, Texas, Colorado and Switzerland.

     
  16. buntaro

    buntaro Senior Registered

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    Oraktoraeneo,

    You asked,

    "...what about after us? Evolution doesn't end with us, at least, I don't think."

    --> I do not think Evolution will "end" when we leave. There will be other human races, other planets. I think everything is working out just as planned.

    By the way, I see you live in San Diego. I am an airline pilot, and I fly to San Diego everyday. Look up in the sky, maybe I will wave at you as I go zooming by at 200 miles an hour....
     
  17. Oraktoraeneo

    Oraktoraeneo 'He Who Brings Light'

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    Gladly...I will try.
     
  18. tanguerra

    tanguerra Moderator Emeritus

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    Hi Oraktoraeneo

    I know what you mean when you say that sometimes you feel older than everyone else. I often feel this way too. I don't necessarily subscribe to a rigid structure of 'old' and 'new' souls as some people do, but nonetheless some people do seem a bit more aware than others, you are right. I think this has something to do with what they have been doing with their time, rather than just the amount of it they have spent incarnated. It is my belief that all of us are thousands and thousands of years old, but just as in ordinary life, age is no guarantee of wisdom.

    We are all 'different', unique individuals (especially on the inside) - but believe me I know what you mean when you say you don't feel as though you fit in with others. (I think most people feel that way at least some of the time though perhaps others feel it more strongly and frequently).

    It sounds like you have quite a story to tell. If you would like to share it we will all be very interested when you are ready. You might find it interesting to read through some of the posts in 'past life memories' section and see if anything there resonates with you.
     
  19. Oraktoraeneo

    Oraktoraeneo 'He Who Brings Light'

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    Well, see, that's the thing...

    I haven't a memory to account for...however, the only things that I believe could be construed as memories are my love for swordsmanship, my ability to use one pretty flippin' well, an odd love for decyphering languages, my ability to draw and something that someone told me: that I was a botanist in my last life. This could account for my love of twirling sticks as a kid (and even to now).

    I don't have memories, but rather the remnant actions of what might be some.
     

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