Discussion in 'SCIENTIFIC and ANECDOTAL research' started by Deborah, Apr 5, 2003.
An interesting thread for new members.
I posted a thread on African belief in reincarnation, here is another article on the subject.
Thank you for an enlightening post, Katrien. The "more info" button at the bottom links to an interesting index on African religions.
This concept in the article actually seems somewhat more in line with my own beliefs about my own situation. I have felt conflicted about the sense of connection to my GGG Grandfather and the belief that each human is a unique, irreplacable individual.
1. How do these traditions explain those for whom childbirth is medically contraindicated, and
2. Is there a concept of ancestors as personal rays whose function is not as protector but a seeker of healing and rectification (as far as possible) with another ancestor as a protector?
My mother almost miscarried with me at six weeks' conception, but it stopped. The part about the spirit connecting with the child in the womb comes to mind.
This quote from Julius Caesar-
"The Celts were fearless warriors because "they wish to inculcate this as one of their leading tenets, that souls do not become extinct, but pass after death from one body to another..." —Julius Caesar
expands upon the concept of "Druids"-- the original peoples of Ireland, Wales, etc. believed in animism and reincarnation.
That quote also illustrates why some people (or large churches with a strong monetary power or political influence) didn't want their followers to believe - it would make them less afraid, less likely to seek the church's intercession. IMO, the belief in reincarnation is self-empowering, not everyone likes that.
very true here is a early tale : "Scél asa mberar co mbad hé Find mac Cumaill Mongán" translated as "How it was learned that Mongan was Fionn reincarnated"
Buddhism & Rebirth
Buddhist believe in rebirth.
The Buddha himself can recall so many of his past lives.
Since coming to this forum, I do not have to just believe what
Buddha said. So many of you here can confirm past lives is real and very true.
In Theravada Buddhism there is a section mentioning about rebirth. It is called " Dependent Origination".
Hi, I'm new to this forum but I thought I'd answer this question. According to Wikipedia, here's what it says on the Norse and Reincarnation:
Reincarnation also appears in Norse mythology, in the Poetic Edda. The editor of the Poetic Edda says that Helgi Hjörvarðsson and his mistress, the valkyrie Sváfa, whose love story is told in the Helgakviða Hjörvarðssonar, were reborn as Helgi Hundingsbane and the valkyrie Sigrún. Helgi and Sigrún's love story is the matter of a part of the Völsunga saga and the lays Helgakviða Hundingsbana I and II. They were reborn a second time as Helgi Haddingjaskati and the valkyrie Kára, but unfortunately their story, Káruljóð, only survives in a probably modified form in the Hrómundar saga Gripssonar.
The belief in reincarnation was probably commonplace among the Vikings since the annotator of the Poetic Edda wrote that people formerly used to believe in it, but that it was in his (Christian) time considered "old wife's folly":
Sigrun was early dead of sorrow and grief. It was believed in olden times that people were born again, but that is now called old wives' folly. Of Helgi and Sigrun it is said that they were born again; he became Helgi Haddingjaskati, and she Kara the daughter of Halfdan, as is told in the Lay of Kara, and she was a Valkyrie.
As a person who loves Norse mythology and culture, I was quite interested to find this, too.
Welcome to the forum Ariannel
Thanks for sharing your findings, was it your interest in Norse culture that brought you to the forum? Maybe you were around during that time? : angel
Hope you enjoy it here
Hiya Ariannel and welcome to the forum
The concept of reincarnation was a very important one in Norse mythology. It is a theme in many of the stories: when warriors die on the battlefield they are "reborn" (not as new individuals though) and the afterlife is all about eating, partying, dying in battle - only to come to life again and do it all over.
In the hall of the main god Odin, where all the warriors would meet up and party after the battle (and their deaths), there was a big boar. This was eaten every night and then 'reborn' the next day, only to be eaten again.
The concept of reincarnation probably goes even further back. On the Gundestrup Cauldron from the early Iron Age there is a picture of the presumed dead warriors lining up after the battle to be dipped in what we call 'the cauldron of life' (perhaps the Gundestrup Cauldron itself?) - and thus they are reborn.
Of course this is not reincarnation in the same sense as we understand it since people were not explicitly reborn as different individuals. But the concept was definitely there, the idea of death not being 'the end', etc.
I haven't ever thought of it like that. Perhaps so! I do feel a strong pulling towards the british isles and scandanavia though I've never personally been there. (I really hope to one day!). I long for rolling green hills and mountains, cloudy misty days, fields of flowers and stone buildings. Living in the midwest, the plains have their own beauty and mystique, but I've never truly felt at home here. When I saw the Sound of Music (years ago) it made such an impression on me. Not because of the music or the plot, but the setting! It's like I'm looking at my home every time I see it. I don't know how to explain it.
I've actually been a lurker on this forum for quite some time and finally decided to contribute. My love affair with reincarnation has been one that I've been having for about five years now after I first read Dr. Brian Weiss' book Many Lives, Many Masters. Since then I've read books by Dr. Michael Newton, Carol Bowman (of course), and many others.
To bring this back to the topic, I'm continually fascinated at how many cultures actually did and still do have a belief in some kind of afterlife and/or reincarnation. I'm convinced that there has to be a reason for that. Our souls are remembering something about ourselves but we don't quite know what it is exactly. We're getting close, but it's a continuing journey.
I knew, that it was the Valkyrie who brought fallen heroes to the Valhalla, where they are preparing for the Ragnarök to fight for Odin. And as you mentioned, they have party every night and eat from Sæhrímnir, the wild boar you mentioned.
One of Peter Madsen's cartoon titled Odins væddemål is about this belief.
However it is even more interesting to have trace of reincarnation in the sagas, namely the Edda. Normally it was believed that the not so privileged dead went to Hel, the underworld. Just as the ancient Greek had their belief of Hades, while there are records in Platon's works, that clearly refer to the concept of eincarnation.
I am very open to know more about the old norse sagas, as I am also extremely interested in them.
Slavic belief in Reincarnation
Rod - Rod is the most ancient, and most major proto-slavic God. He is the first god—progenitor of deities, creator of the Universe and its manager. I have also to mention, that the Slavic word "род" has several meanings, including kin, tribe, and giving birth. He is a god of fertility and family, concerned with the continuation of bloodlines and the extension and glorification of clans. Rodzanica were female and represented the stars; were also spirits of birth and fate. Rod were male and stood for the ancestors. Since Rodzanica were present at the birth of babies, the birth parties were called Rozing. Those that honored the Rod/zanica, it was believed that all new births were reincarnations of passed ancestors.
I am a christian but not a churchgoing christian. I make the distinction since I believe it is church teaching that reincarnation does not exist. And NOT biblical teaching, since there are many many verses in the bible that refers to reincarnation. Here are some and I will add the link so everyone who is interested can read the rest of them.
There are many Bible verses that affirm the reality of reincarnation. We will examine some of them here.
The episode in the Bible where Jesus identified John the Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah the prophet is one of the clearest statements which Jesus made concerning reincarnation.
For all the prophets and the law have prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was to come. (Matt. 11:13-14)
In the above passage, Jesus clearly identifies John the Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah the prophet. Later in Matthew's gospel Jesus reiterates it.
And the disciples asked him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"
But he answered them and said, "Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand."
Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist." (Matt. 17:10-13)
In very explicit language, Jesus identified John the Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah. Even the disciples of Jesus understood what Jesus was saying. This identification of John to be the reincarnation of Elijah is very important when it comes to Bible prophecy. By identifying the John with Elijah, Jesus identified himself as the Messiah. The Hebrew scriptures mentions specific signs that would precede the coming of the Messiah. One of them is that Elijah will return first.
Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. (Mal. 4:5)
This is one of the major Messianic promises from God that is found in the Bible. And these John is Elijah references clearly demonstrate the reality of reincarnation. So there are two important conclusions we can draw from this:
The Hebrew scriptures prophesied that Elijah himself - not someone like him or someone in the same ministry as him but Elijah himself - would return before the advent of the Messiah.
(2) Jesus declared John to be Elijah when he stated that Elijah has come.
Based on these conclusions alone, either (A) or (B) must be true:
John was Elijah himself which means that Elijah reincarnated as John the Baptist. And if this is true then reincarnation must belong once again in Christian theology. It also means that the concept of corpses crawling out of graves on Judgment Day can be discarded. OR...
John was not Elijah reincarnated which means that Elijah himself did not return. And if this is true then either (1) or (2) listed below is true:
Malachi's prophecy concerning Elijah's return to life before the coming of the Messiah failed to happen. This would mean that God does not keep his promise and that the Bible is fallible. OR...
(2) Jesus was not the Messiah.
Based on all the logic presented thus far, only one of the following conclusions is true:
I. Reincarnation is a reality OR...
II. Jesus was not the Messiah OR...
III. Bible prophecies are not reliable.
There is no way around this logic. Only one of the above options can be true. And because Jesus' declaration that John is Elijah is overt and direct, then the only option that can be logically true is (A).
After the beheading of John, Jesus took a few of his disciples to the top of a mountain and transfigured into a Being of Light. On the mountain with them as Elijah and Moses.
After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus ...
As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus gave them orders not to tell anyone what they had seen until the Son of Man had risen from the dead.
They kept the matter to themselves, discussing what "rising from the dead" meant.
And they asked him, "Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things."
"Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected?"
"But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him." (Mark 9:9-13)
The passage above describes the disciples seeing the spirit of Elijah and wondering again about Elijah's role. Jesus again identifies John to be the reincarnation of Elijah.
The description of Jesus shining with light as the sun and clothes as white as the light is remarkably similar to descriptions of Jesus in many near-death accounts. This transfiguration of Jesus event in the Bible is just one of many events in the Bible that corresponds with near-death experiences.
Another point to make is that the appearance of Elijah and Moses in spirit with Jesus refutes the concept of people sleeping in graves until the last day. In other words, it refutes the concept of resurrection.
Skeptics of reincarnation like to quote the following Bible verse in an effort to refute Jesus' clear teaching of the reincarnation of Elijah as John the Baptist.
And he [John the Baptist] will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah. (Luke 1:17)
khanty[siberian] belief in Reincarnation
"The spirits who inhabit the site are timeless but their wooden images, incarnations even are not and have a life and death cycle that matches the man who made them.
'The Khanty also believe that while a man or woman may die, one soul of each individual - the reincarnation soul (there are a total of four souls in women and five in men) -- is received by a related infant born shortly afterwards into the same clan. Thus while the clan is timeless, its component parts (men and women) are not, being born, living and decaying much as the spirit dolls do. Wood rots but the local gods here at this site live on. Back in the villages humans may be born, live, die and rot away but through reincarnated souls the clan lives on through a common "pool" of souls. "
Native American belief in Reincarnation [canada]
The Beaver say that in most cases no one knows who a person was in its previous life. This amnesia occurs when the soul of a deceased person has succeeded in reaching yage, which loosely translates as "heaven." [so only those who have reached the highest state forget their previous lives, but those who don't and who return quickly do?]
There the discarnate person or soul is washed and chooses a new light body, although it remains recognizable by relatives who also arrive. While souls who reach yage are eventually reborn as newborn babies, their memories of their past life, of specific people and places, and of their likes and dislikes are rendered largely inaccessible by the transformation of being in heaven.
However, whether one remembers a past life or not, the Beaver Indians believe every one is reborn. About five percent of the current Beaver population fits into the category of "special child." As one informant put it, "the ones that get born again [and are 'special children'] are those who don't really make it to "heaven''."
When such a soul is born as a "special child," it brings with it some of the knowledge, preferences and aversions, and personality it had manifested in its past life. To be reborn quickly makes one a "special child." Such children are indeed cherished, and actions reminiscent of the previous personality are encouraged, as described below.
There are a number of ways by which a child comes to be known as a "special child," that is, the reincarnation of someone who is deceased. Children are classed as special children either because
(1) someone specifies to whom they want to be reborn;
(2) someone has an "announcing dream" before the baby is born which indicates who it was in its previous life, or has visits from the ghost of the deceased;
(3) a child is particularly precocious; [not sure what that applies to or indicates]
(4) a child exhibits behaviour or memories appropri ate to the previous personality;
(5) a child has a birthmark or marks which may relate to wounds or scars on the previous personality
(6) some combination or all of the above.
I watched a good doco on the druze years ago.There are some you tube documentries [life of bees] around on them but not in english.
I had a dream 14+ years ago where i was at the funeral of a ''muwahhidun",but I did'nt know at the time what the word meant,I had written it as Mowihiddan.I had thought since I grew up among alot of arabic people it must have just been an arabic word I'd heard at the time.
Here is some info on another syrian nearby sect that believes in reincarnation [from 1928].
''The Nusairi look upon rebirth as a terrible necessity, continued until the
soul is purified. When initiating a new adept the Imdm
says to him,-" - If you unveil this mystery, the earth will
not suffer you to be buried in it, and on your return you
will not re-enter a human envelope: no, when you die, you
will enter the envelope of a degrading transformation whence
there will be no deliverance for you, for ever and ever."
The soul of one who is observant passes through only seven
lives, otherwise he is condemned to journey through eighty
The Nusairi consider women to have no souls [!!] women
are not initiated, neither do they share the transmigratory
journeyings of the men. But there appears to be some
divergence from this doctrine in one of the Nusairi
sub-sects.Bent reports that a group
of Kalazis, settled at Tarsus, in Asia Minor, have included
women in their system of reincarnations.
He writes that it was said of a great man among them that he is one of
those who " will at once become stars when they die" without
going through any of those unpleasant transformations
which are a common fact of their belief.
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