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Covid19 Thread 1 (The Elephant in the Room)

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Eva1942 said:
You won’t be ‘LOLing’ when you come into contact with a infected person.

Look, I don’t agree with using masks or gloves. Good hand hygiene is important to stop the spread, and also good social distancing is a way to stop the spread too. But until then, I am freely allowed to exercise my consideration on wearing a mask (because people are feral towards supermarket/grocery store workers). I haven’t actually worn one yet, but as it comes into Winter in the Southern Hemisphere, one has to think logically about these things and consider that even good hand hygiene may not be enough.

I have too much to do in this lifetime, and if I eventually do end up wearing a mask, makes me seem like a paranoid person to you, then let’s see who’s get on the other side of this alive. You have your methods and I have mine. It is rude to laugh at people’s insecurities.

Eva x
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Yea and this is when I say that this is going to be around for a long long time. The virus remains in the body for up to 38 days after recovery and can reactivate in some unlucky cases and there is no natural immunity so one can get it multiple times.
 
Latest from the British Government saying that these restrictions could go on for literally months. I don't honestly think I can take that - even if I had a guarantee that life would go completely back to normal afterwards (which seems impossible - because the Economy is being trashed as we speak). Add that I live in the Welsh part of the country and the First Minister for this region of the country is talking about possibly forbidding us even going out for the daily exercise period we are "graciously allowed". I'm speaking as someone that has a passable size garden (so in the middle between those with no garden and those with big gardens) and I won't be able to handle that. I couldnt do that even if the whole of Britain had that restriction. But, if it's just Wales and the rest of Britain can still have their daily exercise I can see me going through the roof at the Welsh Assembly (ie the regional "government") pulling that stunt (when, god knows, I do not agree with their existence as an institution in the first place - we are all British, as far as I'm concerned).

I am seriously reviewing my options personally. I have always taken the view that "If I either get serious chronic illness or my Society becomes too bad to live in" that I won't do so any longer and will commit suicide to get out of my body (if that's the problem) or my Society (if that's the problem) and head for Heaven sooner than I'd expected to (ie about 20 years early presumably - as I'm in my 60's now). I was very very conscious before yesterday's head of this regional government called the Welsh Assembly spouted that little gem at us. I am even more conscious now that there may come a point when I have to decide that "Society has become too bad to live in" and it's time for the exit door/head for Heaven immediately.


Is anyone else wondering if things might be getting so bad - whether for themselves personally or for Society as a whole that they might face having to make that choice whether to continue with this life or no?
 
Ceridwen, I can understand your hardships and how they have made you feel. Are you, like me, in isolation alone?

I've found that the only way I personally can deal with this situation is to put to one side memories of how things were shortly before Covid-19, and accept that I now live in a different world with different rules (not to my liking) and adjust my thinking accordingly. Obviously there are days when I fail miserably at this, but in the main I've adjusted pretty well after 5 weeks of isolation, and am getting on with this new life by occupying myself with new activities, and not looking back. As I'm not prepared to emerge until it's 100% safe, i.e., probably when there's a vaccine, I've accepted that this is my life for the long haul. There again, I value my life a lot more than you seem to value yours! I have things to do before I depart this life, and am anxious not to be prevented from that.

Society will find its own way. Already there are so many good things emerging amongst all the tragedy. People are becoming more conscious of nature, more conscious of the needs of others, more conscious that material values are of little use when lives are at stake. I do believe some good will come of all this, even if that might not last too long.

I don't believe that daily exercise will be forbidden, in terms of walking etc. But those of us with gardens will not suffer too desperately if it does, short term. I think of all those trying to live in small spaces with no gardens, and count myself lucky I have space around me. If I didn't, I'd probably be in despair.

But would I voluntarily throw away 20+ potential years of my life for the sake of a temporary hardship that will pass? Not at this moment. I'm really sad that you feel this way, and hope that you can reconcile yourself to the hardships enough to forge a life that you'll enjoy, even in this present, and want to preserve.

Up until now, I've always been a 'glass half empty' kind of person. It's taken this wake-up call to convince me it's actually half-full, and that's as much a surprise as anything.
 
I'm not in isolation. I've not got any underlying illnesses or the like. So I live alone - but can go out okay for my shopping and daily exercise. I like my social life and thought I'd got it all pretty sorted out and it's very hard to be robbed of it all overnight and, if I were robbed of even being able to go out for walks too, and with all the fears that Society will be a lot more like "1984 (George Orwell)" by the end of this on a permanent basis. I'm a freethinker and I do fear the Government might try to do things like forced vaccinations, forced implants of microchips (so that we can't just leave our mobile phones at home in order not to be traced as to our wherabouts). Drones in the skies are already being used to spy on us and that might continue. That's not a society I would want to live in and I fear the aftermath of Covid even more than the "imprisonment" we are currently in.

I've waited a LONG time to be "free" and stuck it out for many years of jobs I hated with poor pay consoling myself with the thought "When I'm retired - wayhay - freedom at last and I'll do what I want/when I want at last" and it's upsetting not to have that freedom I fought/waited so hard for and worries our freedom will be permanently restricted after this in ways that only the most farsighted feared before this.

Hence the reason that I've always sympathised with any people that get put under "house arrest" when they don't deserve it. My single biggest fear has always been being physically trapped in some way.

It must be easier in some ways if staying in for one's own sake - though obviously you have the difficulty I don't of how to get your shopping done and can't have the odd chats in passing (at "safe distance") with passersby in what is quite a chatty area and I duly had a long chat with a very pleasant young family that had literally only just moved to this area before Lockdown.
 
Can see what you mean, Ceridwen. I too am a free spirit and fiercely independent, but the way I look at it is that in my case my personal freedom is inside my head, and so far nobody can do much about stopping that. So being physically trapped (unless by illness) isn't something I'm too worried about. House arrest - which is what this is essentially, presents opportunities and time for lots of interesting activities. I have a good social life online now. Obviously I miss personal contact, hugging people in particular, but it's not the end of the world, and will be that much sweeter when it comes back again. I'm spending time reappraising a lot of things, while isolation is imposed. I've chosen this only because with underlying health problems the virus would probably end my life, hence I'm in it for the long haul. A kind neighbour is doing my shopping, and there's still the telephone to chat to friends.

I can't see Brave New World happening to the degree you fear in this country. We Brits are made of stern stuff, and wouldn't give in very easily. I can't see that mass vaccination would be a bad thing, either. Personally I'd feel a lot safer if that were the case!
 
Obviously other people are entirely free to do what they please re getting vaccinated. I won't be personally - as I've had precisely one injection since primary school age - an anti-tetanus one from a (former) friend having carelessly injured me and the doctor got informed I'd better not feel much or he WOULD be LOL. I don't do vaccinations personally anyway - but each to their own and we are all entitled to our own personal stance on that one. Let and let live.
 
Re: FDA Approves Blood Filtration Treatment

This is a follow-up to a prior post regarding the use of blood plasma (with its antibodies) from people who have recovered from Covid for treatment of those with the disease. This is another treatment modality that has been approved, involving filtration of the blood to remove inflammatory agents:

The proteins that are removed are typically elevated during infections and can be associated with a “cytokine storm” that occurs in some COVID-19 patients, leading to severe inflammation, rapidly progressive shock, respiratory failure, organ failure and death.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...zes-coronavirus-blood-purification-treatment/

So, the longer this goes on, the more options there will be available. This is a VERY GOOD THING! We're a long way from herd immunity and from a vaccine. This means that a good many of us will (after we've managed to avoid a "peak" that would have overwhelmed healthcare systems) probably have to get back out there and take our chances. Otherwise there will eventually be nothing left--at some point all of the manufacture and supply chains will break down if we don't get out there and keep them going. How that will be accomplished is the kind of thing that is being debated at various levels of government at the moment. I assume it will be accomplished in stages with lots of precautions, but don't be surprised if many things get started back up again by the end of May.

Cordially,
S&S
 
No government has the right to tell/ask people to go back to work and risk the health of both themselves and there families... Only people can decide that... If people are punished by there governments by withdrawing there support for making the decisions not to risk there's and there families lives by disregarding there governments decisions to ask/send them back to work then the United Nations should step in and put a stop to it ... No government has the right to tell/ask there people to take such risks with themselves and there families... then enforce those decisions in ways that force's them back to work There is a fine line between encouraging the expansions of a welfare state and proper and save ways to go about things With the coronavirus that line is now blurred and may force governments to make judgments on peoples rights for health reasons not to work ...if that is what they choose to do when governments have no rights to impose on peoples rights in these matters.. then the highest courts in the lands will never allow governments to do it as all of the current laws and regulations on unemployment have no relevance to the people rights on coronavirus health issues
As the experts say a vaccine is the only way back to some resemblance of normality ... A vaccine is at least twelve months away then another twelve months to manufacture enough doses to have the desired effects..then at least another two years before all of the world's economies are back in unison with each other...as each recover at different rates... All government's need to plan for the results that is going to have... There is no doubt at all that the living standards in all of the advanced economies are going to take a big hit as they struggle to get some resemblance of there economies back on track
 
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Hi John,

People will have to make choices. When the employer says come back to work (with precautions in place), people will do so or ?? lose jobs I guess. Maybe they'll get a chance for an extended non-payed furlough, I don't know. No one can be forced to work outside of the military unless there is a change in the law (at least in the U.S.), but government cannot afford to pay support to more than a limited percentage of the population. At some point the dangers--and I mean real "failed state" type dangers--from avoiding contact are going to outweigh the danger of spreading Wuhan. When the food riots start, the lights go off, etc.--it is too late.

In any case, things are brightening up for the U.S. prospects:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/100-times-safer-now-early-204833052.html

https://www.yahoo.com/news/cdc-director-robert-redfield-estimates-144730874.html

We'll be opening back up again in the not too distant future. Probably in some places by the end of April, in others by the end of May. However, without precautions this will just lead to the beginning of another infection cycle. So, that is the big question. What do we need to do to prevent things from getting out of hand. It is almost impossible to eliminate the virus completely without a vaccine. What we can hope to do is limit the case load to prevent things from overwhelming the healthcare system and protect the most vulnerable. Eventually herd immunity and/or a good vaccine will be in place. In the meantime, we continue to fine-tune treatment and diminish fatalities.

Just my opinion . . . .

Cordially,
S&S

PS--At the least, everyone should get used to wearing a mask anytime they are out in public for the foreseeable future. Over time the quality will improve to the point that they are also a protection for yourself as well as a protection for others.
 
For those who love classical music, tenor Andrea Bocelli performed in the Milan Cathedral today:
There even is a link to a text sheet, in case people want to sing along.
 
SeaAndSky said:
It doesn't help that the sneakies are finding new ways to "sneak" to their second homes elsewhere (by shipping their luggage in advance):
S&S
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I worked Maundy Thursday and Easter Saturday. I continually asked people what they were doing for Easter and a lot of them said “catching up with friends, family and going to my shack up the river” (note: some families have holiday homes up the Flinders Ranges or down the Flerieu Pennisula).

I thought “don’t you get it?! This whole quarantine thing is NOT an opportunity for you to do things you never had the time to do, it’s for STAYING HOME so you don’t get sick or if you do give it to someone”.

You can’t fix stupid, and it looks like you can’t even quarantine it either...

Hope you are keeping well,
Eva x
 
Eva1942 said:
I worked Maundy Thursday and Easter Saturday. I continually asked people what they were doing for Easter and a lot of them said “catching up with friends, family and going to my shack up the river” (note: some families have holiday homes up the Flinders Ranges or down the Flerieu Pennisula).

I thought “don’t you get it?! This whole quarantine thing is NOT an opportunity for you to do things you never had the time to do, it’s for STAYING HOME so you don’t get sick or if you do give it to someone”.

You can’t fix stupid, and it looks like you can’t even quarantine it either...

Hope you are keeping well,
Eva x
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A natural question arises:

Is the stupidity an intrinsic property of some souls, or, is it all due to the inflluence of the terrestrial bodies/environments?
 
Cyrus said:
A natural question arises:

Is the stupidity an intrinsic property of some souls, or, is it all due to the inflluence of the terrestrial bodies/environments?
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One word Cyrus. FEAR. Fear of not being able to do what makes them feel comfortable. The pandemic has increasingly forced some to live outside of their comfort zone. Those who are mostly Extroverts are suffering from these quarantine laws.

Australia is now on a flattening curve, but we still need to keep all laws and restrictions in place. They say that we could be back to domestic normalcy by December 2020, with all international borders closed to tourists until at least January 2021. Well that’s what I read..

Even if this does happen and I have to change my holiday to a domestic one, I still will be very careful...

Eva x
 
Cyrus said:
A natural question arises:

Is the stupidity an intrinsic property of some souls, or, is it all due to the inflluence of the terrestrial bodies/environments?
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Darwin Awards, a large part of the populations though healthy and to some extent have the means to stay home at least in the western nations have glacial adjustment reactions and lack basic sense especially the sort that won't accept reality wanting to socialize ect. There is very real risks of further waves due to people rushing to normal be it for financial reasons (understandable) but those doing it to make up for lost time due to social reasons is going to cause a lot of unnecessary loss of life. Last but not least is the western mindset that enables inaction and passivity only to panic at the very last second after sticking to any action other than inaction is overreaction for which sent the masses panic buying toilet paper. Fear is the result of unwilling to face things head on lacking preparedness, endurance, good sense, and self sufficiency if not for oneself but certainly for others.
 
Eva1942 said:
One word Cyrus. FEAR. Fear of not being able to do what makes them feel comfortable. The pandemic has increasingly forced some to live outside of their comfort zone. Those who are mostly Extroverts are suffering from these quarantine laws.

Australia is now on a flattening curve, but we still need to keep all laws and restrictions in place. They say that we could be back to domestic normalcy by December 2020, with all international borders closed to tourists until at least January 2021. Well that’s what I read..

Even if this does happen and I have to change my holiday to a domestic one, I still will be very careful...

Eva x
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I've just recalled an old joke between us the programmers: users are the worst enemy of a programmer.

But, at the same time, if there were no users, there'd be no money to pay our salaries.

The best way to cope with this is, I guess, just to acquire by experience (which takes time) some good practices that somehow help to neutralize such phenomena. Exchanging information with the colleagues may be useful in this sense. But, of course, one has to be very cautious. It's like crossing a frozen river by its ice in a hard loaded truck: if either the ice is too thin or the truck is too heavy - you're finished (I once did that, and survived !).

Good luck to you, Eva, take care.
 
Hi S&S The US leads the world in the rights if its peoples I will observe with interest if the peoples progressive advocate groups decide to challenge the US governments rights to send people back to work while the danger of infection is still there and refuse to pay them support through your courts..Looking at in a totally realistic way... they would at the very least get an injunction to stop the government from doing it until the legal implications could be considered and presented to a higher court There is no legal precedent in any country which will mean the injunction would remain in place until it found its way to your supreme court for consideration ..... interesting times if progressive groups challenged in the courts ... also a great cause for the progressive's with your elections looming

All The Best
 
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So CNN is now reporting that the virus might’ve started in a lab...This is all such a dumpster fire. :(:mad:

I’m sorry for being negative I’m having a rough time dealing with all of this and the implications today. My elderly mother lives alone in another state and I had planned to visit her this month...
 
Referring to my post #318 ..All around the word the question being asked and will be asked is... If people are either asked or forced to go back to work what liability do employers have if they catch the coronavirus? The US makes it very clear According to the Occupational Safety & Heath Act ... employers are required to furnish to each of it's employees employed a place of employment which are free from recognized hazards that are causing or a likely to cause death or serious physical harm to its employees.. This is giving lawyers in the US concern about how courts would view infections after a return to work is put in place knowing that coronavirus is still not fully under control The idea of going back to work across the world has many questions still to be answered.. IMO unless workers sign an agreement with there employers that they take full responsibility if they get sick or die after contracting the virus at there workplace then it's no possible for employers to take those risks upon themselves The whole idea of going back to work is not an easy one to implement
 
Sarra said:
So CNN is now reporting that the virus might’ve started in a lab...This is all such a dumpster fire. :(:mad:

I’m sorry for being negative I’m having a rough time dealing with all of this and the implications today. My elderly mother lives alone in another state and I had planned to visit her this month...
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I've heard the same thing: that the virus started in a lab. The indications were there all along because the lab is located just outside the city of Wuhan and you really didn't need to be a genius to start putting the pieces together. The lab's safety protocols are also suspect. Apparently Patient Zero was a lab employee who had gone to Wuhan for something-or-other and infected others. OK, accidents happen. But what's baffling and inexcusable is that China had banned domestic travel to and from Wuhan while at the same time they allowed international travel to and from Wuhan. I'm going to leave that right there. You can draw your own conclusions.

So sorry to hear you're missing your mom. There are counties that are doing quite well in the US. I hope your mom is in one of those counties where there are few cases. I live in Pennsylvania and several counties here have fewer than 10 cases. But, our big trouble spots are Philadelphia and the counties surrounding it.

As a whole, many countries are starting to level off with the number of daily new cases, including the US. There are potential treatments in the pipline that can address cases until a vaccine is developed. And, those are positives to think about.
 
John Tat said:
Referring to my post #318 ..All around the word the question being asked and will be asked is... If people are either asked or forced to go back to work what liability do employers have if they catch the coronavirus? The US makes it very clear According to the Occupational Safety & Heath Act ... employers are required to furnish to each of it's employees employed a place of employment which are free from recognized hazards that are causing or a likely to cause death or serious physical harm to its employees.. This is giving lawyers in the US concern about how courts would view infections after a return to work is put in place knowing that coronavirus is still not fully under control The idea of going back to work across the world has many questions still to be answered.. IMO unless workers sign an agreement with there employers that they take full responsibility if they get sick or die after contracting the virus at there workplace then it's no possible for employers to take those risks upon themselves The whole idea of going back to work is not an easy one to implement
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You bring up some really good points!

Employers need to be thinking NOW on how they will re-open. But, before US states and regions can even BEGIN a phased comeback and reopen businesses, there are criteria they need to meet: they have to show a downward trajectory of influenza-like and covid-like cases reported within a 2-week period, a downward trajectory of documented covid cases within a 2-week period, downward trajectory of positive test results for covid, hospitals need to be treating those patients without crisis care, and there needs to be a robust testing program in place for at-risk healthcare employees. There's more information on The White House's web site, and this includes details on each of the three re-opening phases: https://www.whitehouse.gov/openingamerica/

A number of open business have already adapted quickly to the crisis by putting up plexiglass shielding at checkout counters, marking 6' distances, having employees work from home where possible, etc. So, bottom line is that businesses can adapt.

I've heard on the news that one of the things that may be implemented are temperature checks upon entry into a workplace. If you have a fever, you take your sick a$$ home or to the doctor. Schools need to implement similar measures and if your child has a fever, you need to take his/her sick a$$ home or to the doctor. Many employers in the US will have to rethink their sick leave policies because that's part of the problem: they are too stingy!
 
Thank you @AlteSeele I appreciate your response. My mom is in Florida which is another trouble spot and she has chronic asthma. But like you she’s mostly just surrounded by it and it’s not actually bad in the small town where she lives. I do hope this can be resolved faster and less people have to die because of carelessness.
 
The world is becoming wilder and cleaner. This is not, in all respects, a good thing. But it is encouraging to think that things do start recovering when humans stop messing them up:

https://apnews.com/726ff63bb43bdca65e41625b1e223040

Nonetheless, as Proverbs 14:4 puts it: "Where no oxen are, the crib is clean: but much increase is by the strength of the ox." I.e., without our industry and "busyness" things get cleaner, but our industry and busyness is what allows us to thrive. Still, it would be nice if we could tone it down a bit . . . ;) I wouldn't mind a bit less "busyness" myself. In that regard, I've always liked the line in the "Hobbit" where Tolkien talks about a time "long ago in the quiet of the world, when there was less noise and more green . . ." :)

hobbit-house-in-new-zealand.jpg


S&S
 
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SeaAndSky said:
The world is becoming wilder and cleaner. This is not, in all respects, a good thing. But it is encouraging to think that things do start recovering when humans stop messing them up:

https://apnews.com/726ff63bb43bdca65e41625b1e223040

Nonetheless, as Proverbs 14:4 puts it: "Where no oxen are, the crib is clean: but much increase is by the strength of the ox." I.e., without our industry and "busyness" things get cleaner, but our industry and busyness is what allows us to thrive. Still, it would be nice if we could tone it down a bit . . . ;) I wouldn't mind a bit less "busyness" myself. In that regard, I've always liked the line in the "Hobbit" where Tolkien talks about a time "long ago in the quiet of the world, when there was less noise and more green . . ." :)

hobbit-house-in-new-zealand.jpg


S&S
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Such a "hobbit way of life" wouldn't be able to support the actual Earth's population. Not even one half nor one quarter of it.
Billions of innocent victims would be the price if it were ever achieved, or somehow approached.
Never liked Tolkien's novels, as highly unrealistic and useless in any way, even as mind games.
Just a kind of what in Spain is called "intellectual masturbation" (La paja mental).
 
Cyrus,

Your initial rant is meaningless, as it doesn't relate to anything I either said or implied. In terms of Tolkien's novels, you are entitled to your own opinion. However, I would have more respect for your opinion and taste in literature if you had not expressed it in such a tasteless manner.

S&S
 
SeaAndSky said:
Cyrus,

Your initial rant is meaningless, as it doesn't relate to anything I either said or implied. In terms of Tolkien's novels, you are entitled to your own opinion. However, I would have more respect for your opinion and taste in literature if you had not expressed it in such a tasteless manner.

S&S
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No offence meant, SeaAndSky.

Your post sounded to me a little in unison with some opinions one can find nowadays about the pandemia being a sort of a divine purifier (!) sent by Providence, kind of a new eco-Holocaust etc.

So, I just reacted. But all this is, of course, IMHO.

Sorry, you have taken it like this.

Wish you all the best.
 
Hi Cyrus,

Apologies from my end as well. I agree with you in terms of the "divine purifier" nonsense. Of note on this subject, one of our biggest "progressive" filmmakers, Michael Moore, is apparently putting out a new film dissing the idea that "green technology" will solve all of our problems. So, even the fringe is starting to get the message that an advanced modern civilization can't get along on sunlight and wind alone. I don't mind sun and wind power, and wouldn't mind seeing more. Plus, I'm in a good locale in terms of solar (if I can ever get up the money to make the initial investment). However, unless we want to give up 1st world lifestyles, 3rd world power sources are not enough.

Cordially,
S&S

PS--As a matter of information, I make my living off of technological advance (as I am a patent attorney).
 
Been avoiding the drama for a while (a much needed respite) and looking back it all seeing is being nothing more than writing on the wall that this kind of world can't go on as it is but anyway checked up and found there are reports of the virus reactivating in people upwards of 70 days after testing negative. I honestly wouldn't mind living in Hobbit world as it is a more natural and balanced way of living instead of slaving away 30-40 years in the 9 to 5 or worse living on the job for 80+ hours a week. The worst I've seen reported online was a man in Japan worked 110 hour work weeks for a decade then kicked the bucket from heart attack. Should rename the planted to "Work".
 
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