Karma is not Punishment
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Charles Stuart
Senior Registered
Hi Ailish,
Granted. I agree entirely with everything you have said...:thumbsup: :cool WE are responsible for how we relate to others and the world and, consequently, how others and the world relate to us. Yes, we are ALL interconnected.
However, in the Candomblé line these "Gods" are very active and tangible, and the mediums in these lines even "incorporate" them (myself included...
). All I can say is that the energy present during such incorporations is very tangible and "real".
Just for the sake of, let's say, an anthropological interest, I'll just quickly explain that, according to this line, there is one "Creator God" (Olorum), but then there are 16 "lesser gods", each associated to certain elements and with certain archetypical characteristics, who have been associated to Christian "Saints" in what is known as "religious synchretism".
These are some of them:
Oshalah (Jesus) - Air
Yemanjah (Mary, mother of Jesus) - Sea
Nanan (Saint Anne, mother of Mary) - Earth and water (mud)
Ogum (St. George) - Iron, steel
Yansan (Mary Magdalene and St. Barbara) - Rain
Oshum (St. Mary of the Sacred Conception) - River
Shango (Elijah, St. John the Baptist & St. Gerome) - Lightning
Oxosse (St. Sebastian) - Forest
Shapanan (St. Bartholomew (sp?)) - Earth
As crazy as it may sound, the belief in Candomblé is that these "gods" do, indeed, determine, influence, affect and even control people's lives, with the aid of "Spiritual Guides", in what would constitute a whole hierarchy in the Spiritual Realms. The concept is that they work at guiding us towards bettering ourselves and yes, even "punishing" when one of the "children" sets off in the wrong track and direction.
True or not, from personal experience I have seen enough to make me believe that this is at least possible.
Lately, "scientists" have been managing to determine that the old "grandma's herbs and supersticions" often have a reason and an element of "truth" behind them.
Yes, I agree entirely with what you said, and would not change a word regarding our participation in the process (after all, we ARE co-creators), but I would also not discard outright certain other possibilities. For after all, who are we to know for sure?
: angel
Granted. I agree entirely with everything you have said...:thumbsup: :cool WE are responsible for how we relate to others and the world and, consequently, how others and the world relate to us. Yes, we are ALL interconnected.
However, in the Candomblé line these "Gods" are very active and tangible, and the mediums in these lines even "incorporate" them (myself included...
). All I can say is that the energy present during such incorporations is very tangible and "real".Just for the sake of, let's say, an anthropological interest, I'll just quickly explain that, according to this line, there is one "Creator God" (Olorum), but then there are 16 "lesser gods", each associated to certain elements and with certain archetypical characteristics, who have been associated to Christian "Saints" in what is known as "religious synchretism".
These are some of them:
Oshalah (Jesus) - Air
Yemanjah (Mary, mother of Jesus) - Sea
Nanan (Saint Anne, mother of Mary) - Earth and water (mud)
Ogum (St. George) - Iron, steel
Yansan (Mary Magdalene and St. Barbara) - Rain
Oshum (St. Mary of the Sacred Conception) - River
Shango (Elijah, St. John the Baptist & St. Gerome) - Lightning
Oxosse (St. Sebastian) - Forest
Shapanan (St. Bartholomew (sp?)) - Earth
As crazy as it may sound, the belief in Candomblé is that these "gods" do, indeed, determine, influence, affect and even control people's lives, with the aid of "Spiritual Guides", in what would constitute a whole hierarchy in the Spiritual Realms. The concept is that they work at guiding us towards bettering ourselves and yes, even "punishing" when one of the "children" sets off in the wrong track and direction.
True or not, from personal experience I have seen enough to make me believe that this is at least possible.
Lately, "scientists" have been managing to determine that the old "grandma's herbs and supersticions" often have a reason and an element of "truth" behind them.
Yes, I agree entirely with what you said, and would not change a word regarding our participation in the process (after all, we ARE co-creators), but I would also not discard outright certain other possibilities. For after all, who are we to know for sure?
: angel
Phoenix
Forgot to play nice
Ailish,
Excellent stories. In addition, the Nordic myths had the good Odin and the bad Loki, the mischiefmaker who wreaked a lot of havoc.
And in modern mythology we have the good Jesus and his evil counterpart Satan. As well as the Janus-faced duality of the loving God/vengeful God.
In these common divine archetypes, we find the personification of human nature. We project the good side of ourselves onto the good divinity, and the bad side of ourselves onto the bad divinity.
Phoenix
Excellent stories. In addition, the Nordic myths had the good Odin and the bad Loki, the mischiefmaker who wreaked a lot of havoc.
And in modern mythology we have the good Jesus and his evil counterpart Satan. As well as the Janus-faced duality of the loving God/vengeful God.
In these common divine archetypes, we find the personification of human nature. We project the good side of ourselves onto the good divinity, and the bad side of ourselves onto the bad divinity.
Phoenix
tiltjlp
A Recycled Soul
I thought I'd help restart this discussion by a quote I think sums up my opinion perfectly.
Karma really isn't punishment, nor is there a book with a tally of our good and bad deeds. As I see it, Karma refers to how we react to what others do to or for us, and how what we do to and for others impacts us. I like what Curious Girl says about living from the heart. It's that living from the heart that will help us make the right choices.
We can't control how someone reacts to our actions, good or bad, toward them. We can only control what we do, and how we react to what others do toward us. It's our reactions that shape us, and help us experience the lessons needed for both spiritual and personal growth. That's at least how I view Karma. An opportunity for growth, not punishment
John
curious_girl said:Karma is definitely not punishment.
It is therapy to the soul.
It's about becoming aware,
about living from our hearts,
and making the right choices.
(At least for the time being
Curious Girl.
Karma really isn't punishment, nor is there a book with a tally of our good and bad deeds. As I see it, Karma refers to how we react to what others do to or for us, and how what we do to and for others impacts us. I like what Curious Girl says about living from the heart. It's that living from the heart that will help us make the right choices.
We can't control how someone reacts to our actions, good or bad, toward them. We can only control what we do, and how we react to what others do toward us. It's our reactions that shape us, and help us experience the lessons needed for both spiritual and personal growth. That's at least how I view Karma. An opportunity for growth, not punishment
John
Phoenix
Forgot to play nice
tiltjlp said:
What about the baggage of not reacting otherwise known as 'shoulda, woulda, coulda'? or not answering the door when opportunity bangs on it.
That can not only drive your life, but other people's as well.
When my mother was in college, she turned down a teaching fellowship at an ivy league university. Her mother told her to. She did a lot of kicking herself ever since.
As a result, my mother accepted every education-related opportunity on my behalf that came along-some of which were useful to me, others were a complete waste of my time.
So, I'd say that even doing nothing, can give you baggage. Her baggage from doing nothing, ended up affecting decisions she made on my behalf when I was too young to legally make my own decisions. And that left me with baggage-I can't stand having my time wasted by irrelevant training.
Phoenix
tiltjlp
A Recycled Soul
I guess I didn't make myself clear enough Phoenix. The option of not reacting I meant was not reacting to something someone else might try to do to you. If you insult me and I shrug it or laugh it off, it has no impact on me. The same would be true if I insulted you, not that I would, since I like you. Obviously every decision we make personally has an impact on our lives.
John
John
Val
Member
Karma and Mercy
I believe that karma can be tempered by the law of mercy. If we come to understand our mistakes, and grow in compassion, than there may be no need to suffer the conquences of our actions.
This said, I feel that many of us do need to suffer the conquences of our actions so that we may gain that understanding. It isn't so much a punishment as a learning process.
I believe that karma can be tempered by the law of mercy. If we come to understand our mistakes, and grow in compassion, than there may be no need to suffer the conquences of our actions.
This said, I feel that many of us do need to suffer the conquences of our actions so that we may gain that understanding. It isn't so much a punishment as a learning process.
tanguerra
Moderator Emeritus
I agree with you Val. I don't believe in a vengeful God or in a punitive system of 'karma' with strict hierarchies of 'goodness' and people going 'up' and 'down' on levels as though on an escalator.
I think it is a lot more complicated than that. Even though people mostly enjoy a nice simple dichotomy and easy-to-understand cause and effect I just think it is all a lot 'messier' and more chaotic than that - a bit like life in fact.
I am sure that suffering teaches us compassion and that suffering would not occur if we were all 'perfect' and behaved beautifully towards each other all the time - so in that regard suffering is a necessary part of life if we are going to grow in compassion and wisdom and understanding. This might be a rationalisation and there may be no meaning and no point, but I prefer to believe it because it makes me feel better.
I think it is a lot more complicated than that. Even though people mostly enjoy a nice simple dichotomy and easy-to-understand cause and effect I just think it is all a lot 'messier' and more chaotic than that - a bit like life in fact.
I am sure that suffering teaches us compassion and that suffering would not occur if we were all 'perfect' and behaved beautifully towards each other all the time - so in that regard suffering is a necessary part of life if we are going to grow in compassion and wisdom and understanding. This might be a rationalisation and there may be no meaning and no point, but I prefer to believe it because it makes me feel better.
Phoenix
Forgot to play nice
tanguerra said:
Add my vote in there. That version of karma, which just doesn't work when it's lifted out of the belief system that it is part and parcel of, reminds me of Jacob's ladder.
As part of Hinduism, karma has an important task-it regulates the caste system. On it's own, karma becomes totally mystifying as it has no purpose. It becomes a buzzword.
tanguerra said:
I find that causality is a very chaotic, confusing and messy thing, as the effects from one single cause can vary widely. It makes more sense to me than the following common definition of how karma works:
Karma: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Which matches up exactly with how another law of nature is commonly (but incorrectly) paraphrased:
Isaac Newton's Third Law of Motion-the law of reciprocal actions: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
How the two concepts "karma" and "motion" ended up with the same definition just boggles the mind...during one of our discussions, I asked Rabbi Gershom about it and he gave me permission to quote from his FAQ:
If you look at the correct translation (Newton's laws were originally written in Latin) it makes a bit more sense:
Sir Isaac Newton said:
Looked at in light of the correct and complete translation, you can clearly see how it is that karma and the Third Law of Motion were correlated-it can easily be spun to appear to be talking about good and evil-two houses alike in dignity...I mean two forces equal in magnitude and opposite in direction.
Part of the incorrect paraphrasing of the Law of Motion is that it alters the time reference, making it appear that the equal and opposite reaction force happens after the action-when in fact both are happening at the same time.
Sir Isaac Newton said:
And that's why the "action/reaction" definition of karma confuses the heck out of me. It's based on an incorrect, but very common, paraphrasing of Newton's Third Law of Motion. If you apply the actual text of the law to karma, it becomes far more mystical-it becomes the Force.
tanguerra said:
Hey, if it makes the people doing the suffering feel better-nothing wrong with that. It also takes all of the burden of blame, karma, etc., off the shoulders of the people making them suffer. :thumbsup:
Phoenix
tanguerra
Moderator Emeritus
Yes Phoenix,
Indeed the workings of the multiverse are a great deal more complex than we bi-pedal carbon based life forms might sometimes like to believe. There is no reason why the spirit should obey the laws of matter, such as thermo-dynamics or gravity or anything else, as you say. They may well be some correlations and similarites, but I bet it is a great deal more complex, subtle and multi-dimensional than the behaviour of asteroids and such.
I think people who cause others to suffer also suffer themselves by the way. I believe causing others to suffer comes from our own original unhappiness (terrible, violent childhoods, etc) but also diminishes us in our own eyes, if not sooner, then later. Most people derive more joy from pleasant interactions with others rather than in harming them, apart from the aberrant minority of course, but you will always get them.
I don't think that believing that suffering causes compassion is in any way a useful 'cop out' for the naughty of this world, but anything that helps one to bear suffering, hey, why not?
Indeed the workings of the multiverse are a great deal more complex than we bi-pedal carbon based life forms might sometimes like to believe. There is no reason why the spirit should obey the laws of matter, such as thermo-dynamics or gravity or anything else, as you say. They may well be some correlations and similarites, but I bet it is a great deal more complex, subtle and multi-dimensional than the behaviour of asteroids and such.
I think people who cause others to suffer also suffer themselves by the way. I believe causing others to suffer comes from our own original unhappiness (terrible, violent childhoods, etc) but also diminishes us in our own eyes, if not sooner, then later. Most people derive more joy from pleasant interactions with others rather than in harming them, apart from the aberrant minority of course, but you will always get them.
I don't think that believing that suffering causes compassion is in any way a useful 'cop out' for the naughty of this world, but anything that helps one to bear suffering, hey, why not?
tiltjlp
A Recycled Soul
tanguerra said:
I agree with you. I think their eventual suffering comes from their own negative attitude and energy rather than any "outside" karma influence which some "unknown" entity keeps track of. Rather than a record being kept somewhere, the negativity is self contained.
tanguerra said:
Again, I agree with you, oh wise woman. But I do feel that suffering can help us understand and adopt a more compassionate attitude. But only if we can overcome the bitterness often arising from our suffering.
John
tanguerra
Moderator Emeritus
Yes John (oh wise one),
I don't think Karma operates like some cosmic Santa Claus keeping track of who has been naughty and who has been nice in a giant ledger putting black marks against people's names.
Everyone suffers. This is life. Things go wrong. Some people suffer greatly over every little thing and others can bear a great deal of suffering without becoming apparently downhearted. This is an individual thing - perhaps varying with experience or wisdom or outlook or upbringing or whatever.
When one day we realise that everyone suffers (some more, some less - even movie stars and celebrities have their trials and tribulations) we begin to be able to walk a mile or two in their moccasins, as Phoenix is fond of saying, and begin to understand that we are not alone and hopefully begin to realise that everything is not always about 'me' and what I want and what I don't have and so on.
This understanding builds compassion for the suffering of others and, hopefully, a desire to ease the suffering of others as well as acceptance that (sometimes) life sucks so may as well just get over it and get on with it. From there it is onwards towards serenity and love (much nicer).
This is all really just basic Buddhism 1.01 - not an original idea of mine! I can't take credit for it, but I do try to remind myself of it when having a bad hair day.
I don't think Karma operates like some cosmic Santa Claus keeping track of who has been naughty and who has been nice in a giant ledger putting black marks against people's names.
Everyone suffers. This is life. Things go wrong. Some people suffer greatly over every little thing and others can bear a great deal of suffering without becoming apparently downhearted. This is an individual thing - perhaps varying with experience or wisdom or outlook or upbringing or whatever.
When one day we realise that everyone suffers (some more, some less - even movie stars and celebrities have their trials and tribulations) we begin to be able to walk a mile or two in their moccasins, as Phoenix is fond of saying, and begin to understand that we are not alone and hopefully begin to realise that everything is not always about 'me' and what I want and what I don't have and so on.
This understanding builds compassion for the suffering of others and, hopefully, a desire to ease the suffering of others as well as acceptance that (sometimes) life sucks so may as well just get over it and get on with it. From there it is onwards towards serenity and love (much nicer).
This is all really just basic Buddhism 1.01 - not an original idea of mine! I can't take credit for it, but I do try to remind myself of it when having a bad hair day.
Charles Stuart
Senior Registered
Hello everyone,
I agree with just about all that has been said above. Just wanted to comment on what John said:
"Free will also gives us the option of not reacting, which creates no karma."
Because, in my view, omission can also be a cause for negative karma. In fact, nuns and priests who isolate themelves in convents, or even yogis sitting in meditation at the top of a mountain, are not involved in the necessary practices of charity and helping others, which to me are a fundamental aspect of our evolution and growth.
The rules to prevent negative karma are similar, if not the same, to the rules of the 10 commandments, which basically imply in not causing pain to others.
I agree with just about all that has been said above. Just wanted to comment on what John said:
"Free will also gives us the option of not reacting, which creates no karma."
Because, in my view, omission can also be a cause for negative karma. In fact, nuns and priests who isolate themelves in convents, or even yogis sitting in meditation at the top of a mountain, are not involved in the necessary practices of charity and helping others, which to me are a fundamental aspect of our evolution and growth.
The rules to prevent negative karma are similar, if not the same, to the rules of the 10 commandments, which basically imply in not causing pain to others.
tiltjlp
A Recycled Soul
Charles Stuart said:
But I'm not talking about omission Charles, but about either ignoring, not reacting, or reacting in a way not expected by the person acting toward us. Let me give some examples of what I see karma as being, which is reactionary rather than causative for the most part.
If I sent you a PM with what I thought was a terrible insult, that is going to cause negative energy and feelings in me. Now if when you get my PM, you feel my comments are funny, and laugh them off, they will have either a neutral or a mildly positive effect or energy on you.
The way you reacted doesn't change the negative energy the PM caused me. And my unkind intention doesn't change the neutral or positive energy your reaction caused upon you. So I see karma being more an issue of one's reaction than one of cause and effect. And as for rules and laws, from what I understand karma to be, there are none.
John
tanguerra
Moderator Emeritus
Personally I dislike too many 'rules' regarding how people choose to conduct themselves. I doubt that there is any one-size-fits-all system of karma which is quite so rigid as some people would like to think.
There is nothing wrong with choosing to spend one life or many in contemplation in my view. Helping others is an excellent thing, so is training the mind. Different strokes...
Obviously it is not ideal (simply from a practical point of view apart from anything else) to go around hurting people deliberately or cruelly, but then again, I don't pretend to see all ends or know all answers.
There is nothing wrong with choosing to spend one life or many in contemplation in my view. Helping others is an excellent thing, so is training the mind. Different strokes...
Obviously it is not ideal (simply from a practical point of view apart from anything else) to go around hurting people deliberately or cruelly, but then again, I don't pretend to see all ends or know all answers.
Charles Stuart
Senior Registered
Hi John,
Yes, certainly negative actions bring about negative reactions. Simple human relations seems to tend to take care of that. Someone we hurt might wish to hurt us back, and so the process rolls until one of the two decided to end it. By forgiving seems to be the best way. It is a pity this doesn't always happen two ways.
Hi Tanguerra,
I believe we certainly always have the opportunity for choice. I was just emphasizing that "soul evolution" (according to my beliefs, of course) comes hand-in-hand with helping others evolve also.
:thumbsup:
Yes, certainly negative actions bring about negative reactions. Simple human relations seems to tend to take care of that. Someone we hurt might wish to hurt us back, and so the process rolls until one of the two decided to end it. By forgiving seems to be the best way. It is a pity this doesn't always happen two ways.
Hi Tanguerra,
I believe we certainly always have the opportunity for choice. I was just emphasizing that "soul evolution" (according to my beliefs, of course) comes hand-in-hand with helping others evolve also.
:thumbsup:
Crissy2
Senior Registered
I made a statement at one time that went something like this.
"Maybe in order to reach those spiritual calm lifetimes, one must learn and encounter the darker side of things as ways to learn and grow. Maybe we all originally start out on our soals path here on earth as cold and hard, and eventually grow to be enlightened."
My thoughts on this changed a small bit. I don't think we chose to be hardened, cruel or mean. I don't think we chose to be unemotional or distant. There is obviously a huge change in our society today in comparison to what it was in the beginning. Darkness has always been present from the time our earthy pressence made it's grand entrance. I think Earth is a school. It's a grand way to teach ourselves lessons. With each life, we learn something new and continue to grow. I can't imagine pre-planning what my children and I went through however I had precognitive dreams for nearly a year before everything happened so what happened somehow was written in some book somewhere. This could get very twisted and twirled but the big picture is that I grew as an individual and became stronger. What lessons are out there for my children; only they know and one day it may become apparent.
This pole was quite a brain jogger. It had me thinking intensly on each option. : angel
Ok... Hmmm, I'm back to edit. I answered "One must encounter evil in order to learn love" but I think I took it differently. Something hit me as I exited. Maybe I should have answered, "Everything is pre-planned" but I have a twist on that. I just went through something that I knew from the beginning was never written in on my chart. I knew it without a shadow of a doubt. This experience was a total blip on my chart in this lifetime. It did not belong. It had no real benefits or ways to learn from it. It was absolutely not to be part of my journey here this time. I kept fighting that knowledge for an entire year but when God and your guide yell at you enough; you finally say, "Ok!"
This knowledge that i had makes my mind wonder. It would make since that we come down with an outline for our lives. A list of lessons we intend to be tought. A school completely pre-planned with our prior knowledge even though we forget most of that when we come here would seem not to be a true school.. BUT if we had an outline as to what our intentions in this life are to be; what lessons we want to learn, naturally the list would be given to the teacher, (Our devine, God/Goddess, Whomever you feel to be the 1 and almighty) and the teacher would devise the true path. I don't feel that our paths are written to put us through horrible experiences however maybe we are placed within certain opportunities that would allow for the possibility of such hardships. It is then up to us to learn how to handle the situation and come to God if we need assistance.
(Sigh) Holy cow. This issue could be discussed for hours on end. I have thoughts coming to my mind like you wouldn't believe and they all counterdict eachother. LMAO.
"Maybe in order to reach those spiritual calm lifetimes, one must learn and encounter the darker side of things as ways to learn and grow. Maybe we all originally start out on our soals path here on earth as cold and hard, and eventually grow to be enlightened."
My thoughts on this changed a small bit. I don't think we chose to be hardened, cruel or mean. I don't think we chose to be unemotional or distant. There is obviously a huge change in our society today in comparison to what it was in the beginning. Darkness has always been present from the time our earthy pressence made it's grand entrance. I think Earth is a school. It's a grand way to teach ourselves lessons. With each life, we learn something new and continue to grow. I can't imagine pre-planning what my children and I went through however I had precognitive dreams for nearly a year before everything happened so what happened somehow was written in some book somewhere. This could get very twisted and twirled but the big picture is that I grew as an individual and became stronger. What lessons are out there for my children; only they know and one day it may become apparent.
This pole was quite a brain jogger. It had me thinking intensly on each option. : angel
Ok... Hmmm, I'm back to edit. I answered "One must encounter evil in order to learn love" but I think I took it differently. Something hit me as I exited. Maybe I should have answered, "Everything is pre-planned" but I have a twist on that. I just went through something that I knew from the beginning was never written in on my chart. I knew it without a shadow of a doubt. This experience was a total blip on my chart in this lifetime. It did not belong. It had no real benefits or ways to learn from it. It was absolutely not to be part of my journey here this time. I kept fighting that knowledge for an entire year but when God and your guide yell at you enough; you finally say, "Ok!"
This knowledge that i had makes my mind wonder. It would make since that we come down with an outline for our lives. A list of lessons we intend to be tought. A school completely pre-planned with our prior knowledge even though we forget most of that when we come here would seem not to be a true school.. BUT if we had an outline as to what our intentions in this life are to be; what lessons we want to learn, naturally the list would be given to the teacher, (Our devine, God/Goddess, Whomever you feel to be the 1 and almighty) and the teacher would devise the true path. I don't feel that our paths are written to put us through horrible experiences however maybe we are placed within certain opportunities that would allow for the possibility of such hardships. It is then up to us to learn how to handle the situation and come to God if we need assistance.
(Sigh) Holy cow. This issue could be discussed for hours on end. I have thoughts coming to my mind like you wouldn't believe and they all counterdict eachother. LMAO.
Ailish
Administrator Emerita
Hi Crissy,
Some interesting thoughts!
I personally don’t believe that. If everything was pre-set, then that would completely negate free-will choice. That in turn, would not allow us to learn or to grow from our mistakes or from our choices. Sometimes a parent needs to let a child makes their own mistakes, experience the consequences – and learn from it. I think we are all like children while we are here. We are constantly learning and evolving.
I’m curious -- how does free-will fit into your ideas about pre-planning?
Ailish
Some interesting thoughts!
I personally don’t believe that. If everything was pre-set, then that would completely negate free-will choice. That in turn, would not allow us to learn or to grow from our mistakes or from our choices. Sometimes a parent needs to let a child makes their own mistakes, experience the consequences – and learn from it. I think we are all like children while we are here. We are constantly learning and evolving.
I’m curious -- how does free-will fit into your ideas about pre-planning?
Ailish
Crissy2
Senior Registered
Ailish said:Hi Crissy,
I’m curious -- how does free-will fit into your ideas about pre-planning?
Ailish
Well, thats why I said the thoughts coming to mind kept contradicting themselves. :laugh: I only posted 2 thoughts and kept silent on the remaining 10 or more, who knows, they were coming so fast, I couldn't keep up.
I don't think it is set in stone planned as in I don't believe that God or the Almighty has this predestined step plan that allows for no error or free-will. However at the same time, I think we have pin points on our chart. There are certain places we are supposed to be, certain things we are supposed to encounter as to teach us the lessons we need to learn. Depending on how "in-tune" we are to the direction we are given will depend on whether or not we experience what we are supposed to. There has been times in my life where I knew I was exactly where I should have been at exactly the right time. For instance, a premonition that comes in a dream of somewhere you will be in 10+ years and low and behold, 10 years later, you are reliving the dream would somewhat point to the fact that this place was exactly where I was supposed to be. Now how I got there may have taken many different paths off of what may have originally been planned. See?
Or how about when you know that where you stand is exactly where you are supposed to be; You see and hear what is planned and is supposed to come, however you face a choice at that very moment? (See, this happened to me.) Right before my eyes, I knew I had 2 choices. 1 choice was never written into my chart but could be written into my chart however I would have ended my "planned" journey. My purpose and the additional things I had intended myself to learn (not physically here and now but subcontiously) will have been lost. I will however not have negated myself from learning other lessons but my chart would have made a significant change. Let me bold that, underline and mark it in red. Significant. It was a very serene moment, 1 I had never experienced before but I cannot explain the experience enough for someone to understand that obviously we have pre-planned destiny's and lessons, however our journey through them and to them can take many different highways. I think there are reasons and things placed in our path to re-direct us when we begin to stear to far off path however most of us never recognize them. In this past personal experience, I'd say many things were thrown my way that I ignored and finally I was simply grabbed, sat down and spiritually yelled at, shaken, about faced and thumped right back where I needed to be. :thumbsup: So as some things may vear you off of your pre-destined path, you may take a large scenic route but eventually be pushed back to where you needed to be; I on the other hand was about to jump ship and take a totally alternate route that simply was not in my charts for this life.
Hope you could read between the lines on that. I didn't want to get into things that are not supposed to be discussed within this forum as I respect the wishes of this lovely site.
Ailish
Administrator Emerita
Hiya Crissy,
I understand what you’re saying I just see it differently. In my opinion – the dream would be representative of where you want to be in ten years. Consciously, or subconsciously through your thoughts and actions – you create the change and manifest the desired result.
Good for YOU!
:thumbsup:
Physicist David Bohm proposed that the implicate order contains within it all possibilities. The implicate order contains every subatomic particle that has ever been or ever will be as well as every possible configuration of matter and energy. The fact that every possibility is already contained within the whole – does not limit or interfere at all with our free will choices.
The way I see it – that would mean every possible option for our lives already exists, and it is through our thoughts, choices and actions that we bring about the “consequences.”
Just a few more random thoughts to add to your pocketful
Ailish
I understand what you’re saying
I just see it differently. In my opinion – the dream would be representative of where you want to be in ten years. Consciously, or subconsciously through your thoughts and actions – you create the change and manifest the desired result. Good for YOU!
:thumbsup:Physicist David Bohm proposed that the implicate order contains within it all possibilities. The implicate order contains every subatomic particle that has ever been or ever will be as well as every possible configuration of matter and energy. The fact that every possibility is already contained within the whole – does not limit or interfere at all with our free will choices.
The way I see it – that would mean every possible option for our lives already exists, and it is through our thoughts, choices and actions that we bring about the “consequences.”
Just a few more random thoughts to add to your pocketful
Ailish
tanguerra
Moderator Emeritus
Ailish and Chrissie, you are both right! The future is both fixed and up to us to make of it what we will by our choices and the exercise of our free will.
The whole time thing can be very confusing, because we view it too simply. We are seeing something which is vast and complex from an ant's eye perspective, so it is no wonder we get a bit baffled sometimes. We perceive time as a long skinny line when actually it is not.
I imagine it this way - time is ever branching out before us like the branches of a huge tree, with many forks and divides. Depending on the decisions we make and therefore the direction we choose to take, we might end up in a very different place. Whether to get up in the morning or not, run across the street against the traffic lights, give some money to a beggar, wear a red dress to a party....
Time is always there, it does not move or go anywhere - just as the tree is just there. The possible futures are all 'there' existing in the eternities of the space-time continuum. But (fortunately) we are usually not aware of it. Like a little ant we are navigating our way along its various possibilities, exploring its enormous branches, twigs and leaves and cannot comprehend the vastness of the whole thing with our little ant brains.
So, when you get a flash of the future it is a 'potential' future. It is what might happen depending on the decisions you may or may not make. It is what will probably happen depending on your circumstances, nature, fate (if you believe in that sort of thing),luck, accidents, temperament, talents and so on. Nothing is set in stone as far as the little ant is concerned. It can wander about at will, get lost, fall off, start again... What is it doing? What is its purpose? Probably looking for food - hopefully it has some idea how to go about that and will succeed eventually. What are we doing? What is our purpose? That is for the individual to decide. It might be love, enlightentment, nirvana, spiritual growth, God (however you conceive her), wealth, beauty, fame or simply food. Whatever. The tree has no preference in the matter.
Now is where you are up to 'now'. The past, well, that's pretty straightforward, that's the bit 'behind' you. Ahead spreading out before you are limitless possibilities (it's a very big tree branch). You may get a glimpse of one of them now and again, you may not. Just keep going 'up' and you are bound to get somewhere.
The whole time thing can be very confusing, because we view it too simply. We are seeing something which is vast and complex from an ant's eye perspective, so it is no wonder we get a bit baffled sometimes. We perceive time as a long skinny line when actually it is not.
I imagine it this way - time is ever branching out before us like the branches of a huge tree, with many forks and divides. Depending on the decisions we make and therefore the direction we choose to take, we might end up in a very different place. Whether to get up in the morning or not, run across the street against the traffic lights, give some money to a beggar, wear a red dress to a party....
Time is always there, it does not move or go anywhere - just as the tree is just there. The possible futures are all 'there' existing in the eternities of the space-time continuum. But (fortunately) we are usually not aware of it. Like a little ant we are navigating our way along its various possibilities, exploring its enormous branches, twigs and leaves and cannot comprehend the vastness of the whole thing with our little ant brains.
So, when you get a flash of the future it is a 'potential' future. It is what might happen depending on the decisions you may or may not make. It is what will probably happen depending on your circumstances, nature, fate (if you believe in that sort of thing),luck, accidents, temperament, talents and so on. Nothing is set in stone as far as the little ant is concerned. It can wander about at will, get lost, fall off, start again... What is it doing? What is its purpose? Probably looking for food - hopefully it has some idea how to go about that and will succeed eventually. What are we doing? What is our purpose? That is for the individual to decide. It might be love, enlightentment, nirvana, spiritual growth, God (however you conceive her), wealth, beauty, fame or simply food. Whatever. The tree has no preference in the matter.
Now is where you are up to 'now'. The past, well, that's pretty straightforward, that's the bit 'behind' you. Ahead spreading out before you are limitless possibilities (it's a very big tree branch). You may get a glimpse of one of them now and again, you may not. Just keep going 'up' and you are bound to get somewhere.
kingkoopa
New Member
Interesting read! Thanks for the bump. I'm a new member here, and have slowly gathered as much info as a I can about life in my 18 years of living. Here are my two cents on the whole issue of Karma.
I think that before we live a new life we must choose a body with our spirit guides, choose a lesson or a purpose for this life, and try to create a path to the lesson. I think you choose a body and situation that fits your soul perfectly. This can take years IMO before you find the right situation to live in. I think Deja Vu occurs when you remember picking this certain situation that is occurring.
I agree with a lot of you guys about time. I think time is constantly in motion and every single choice we make can affect our future and what we hope to accomplish in this life. If we continually make mistakes and make bad decisions we fall of our path and end up failing to learn the lesson we set out to learn originally.
If we do fall of the path I don't think there is punishment. I think punishment would be pointless. This is why I don't believe in Karma. I don't think good or evil exists. I think every life is just a learning experience designed to make you a better person. If we fail a we pick another life with similar circumstances and try it again IMO.
We keeping incarnating until we have learned all the lessons we need to learn on this place. I have no idea what they all are, but that is just my two cents.
I think that before we live a new life we must choose a body with our spirit guides, choose a lesson or a purpose for this life, and try to create a path to the lesson. I think you choose a body and situation that fits your soul perfectly. This can take years IMO before you find the right situation to live in. I think Deja Vu occurs when you remember picking this certain situation that is occurring.
I agree with a lot of you guys about time. I think time is constantly in motion and every single choice we make can affect our future and what we hope to accomplish in this life. If we continually make mistakes and make bad decisions we fall of our path and end up failing to learn the lesson we set out to learn originally.
If we do fall of the path I don't think there is punishment. I think punishment would be pointless. This is why I don't believe in Karma. I don't think good or evil exists. I think every life is just a learning experience designed to make you a better person. If we fail a we pick another life with similar circumstances and try it again IMO.
We keeping incarnating until we have learned all the lessons we need to learn on this place. I have no idea what they all are, but that is just my two cents.
tanguerra
Moderator Emeritus
Rules! We love rules! If only things were really so orderly!
In the reading I have done, not everybody follows this process exactly. Just like individuals within the present life, some people like to plan things out carefully, make goals and stick to them etc. etc. Other 'free spirits' like to make it up as they go along, have no idea what they are going to do and wouldn't have anything to do with goals, even if they were covered in chocolate.
I have read many books on this whole topic, including the 'life between lives' aspect (Dr Michael Newton is particularly interested in this for those who might like to do further reading, but there are others also).
Many of the stories cited in these books more or less follow the pattern you describe above, but by no means all of them. Perhaps this is to do with the skill and methods of the individual regressionist, or the class/type/culture/ evolution/ personality of their clients. I don't know.
I have read accounts of others who say they were having a lovely time 'floating about' in 'heaven', minding their own business, when they felt a gentle (or not so gentle) a 'push in the back', just went 'Whoops!' and found themselves incarnated again with very little input in the process as far as they know.
So little is known on this topic for sure it is unwise to jump to global conclusions based on a small number of anecdotal stories.
dreamer8682
New Member
ICAM, sometimes karma needs to be seen as positive, as a chance to do things different. Sometimes the things that happen to us in certain lives just happen, but the best thing is to change reactions to them, so any things in life can fix themselves just by that. Of course this also means working to make what you want happen.
To me, it's not so complicated. I believe we are all born carrying over certain traits (some positive and some negative) Karma? maybe. It's up to us to further develope the good and try to eliminate the bad, as best we can. That's all we can really do. To question why we are selfish may be interesting...but to try to develope generousity
is far more important.. I think if you reach a point where you LIKE yourself for developing traits that you admire....then your on the right track and that in your next life you might just be in a position to do a lot of good for MANY people.
We have a number of souls posting here that are living those kinds of lives right now....
The only hands that GOD has on this Earth....are yours....
is far more important.. I think if you reach a point where you LIKE yourself for developing traits that you admire....then your on the right track and that in your next life you might just be in a position to do a lot of good for MANY people.
We have a number of souls posting here that are living those kinds of lives right now....
The only hands that GOD has on this Earth....are yours....
Charles Stuart
Senior Registered
Hi Florence,
I personally believe that "God" has delegated a lot of responsibilities upon all of us... (But I also personally believe He/She/It is watching closely over us to see how we do. )
That was nice. I liked that... :thumbsup:
I personally believe that "God" has delegated a lot of responsibilities upon all of us...
(But I also personally believe He/She/It is watching closely over us to see how we do. )
Inphanta
New Member
Another excellent and insightful thread, with some interesting thoughts being shared and expressed. I think the best way to address this is by looking at each of the statements and questions individually.
Do you think you have to experience everything to grow?
I believe that whilst experience is generally a good thing, some are more beneficial than others, therefore it isn't necessary to experience everything to grow. In fact, some experiences will not only impede growth, but reverse it.
Do you think your consciousness has a choice?
Choice (or free will), I believe is the most important thing we all possess. I am very wary of any philosophies that imply fatalism of any kind. Without free will, we cannot learn. If things are pre-determined, then what we consider choice is only an illusion, and we're nothing more than pawns in an elaborate game who have no say in what they do, good or bad. Nothing is set in stone.
Do you think evil is a must in order to learn love?
Yes and no. Yes in the sense that one gains a greater appreciation of one having experienced or seen the other, but no in that one does not have to have done "evil" things in order to then be a good person.
Do you think you are suffering because you were once a bad person?
I believe that if I suffer at all, it is a result of choices made by myself and others.
Do you think everything is pre-planned?
As mentioned earlier, I have a big problem with deterministic thinking. It removes choice and turns us all into automatons. It's also why I'm very sceptical of scientific "gene theories" (most of which have been debunked) that attribute human traits and characteristics to genes (i.e. a murderer is only such because of their genes). Choice is a gift, yet some choose (ironically) to wish it away.
Do you think you have to experience everything to grow?
I believe that whilst experience is generally a good thing, some are more beneficial than others, therefore it isn't necessary to experience everything to grow. In fact, some experiences will not only impede growth, but reverse it.
Do you think your consciousness has a choice?
Choice (or free will), I believe is the most important thing we all possess. I am very wary of any philosophies that imply fatalism of any kind. Without free will, we cannot learn. If things are pre-determined, then what we consider choice is only an illusion, and we're nothing more than pawns in an elaborate game who have no say in what they do, good or bad. Nothing is set in stone.
Do you think evil is a must in order to learn love?
Yes and no. Yes in the sense that one gains a greater appreciation of one having experienced or seen the other, but no in that one does not have to have done "evil" things in order to then be a good person.
Do you think you are suffering because you were once a bad person?
I believe that if I suffer at all, it is a result of choices made by myself and others.
Do you think everything is pre-planned?
As mentioned earlier, I have a big problem with deterministic thinking. It removes choice and turns us all into automatons. It's also why I'm very sceptical of scientific "gene theories" (most of which have been debunked) that attribute human traits and characteristics to genes (i.e. a murderer is only such because of their genes). Choice is a gift, yet some choose (ironically) to wish it away.
Nightrain
Senior Registered
Yes! Indeed!Deborah said:
I think we often over-simplify the concept of karma for a number of good reasons; the main one probably having something to do with our need for justice. Undoubtedly, we have all been wronged in some way; and we need the satisfaction of knowing that nothing escapes the notice of karma. But, like many who have posted before me, I have learned that karma is not really about justice or even cause and effect. It seems that the principle is far more complicated; and, like the concept of time and space, it may appear as something else on the spiritual level. As such it cannot be fully understood on this plane of existence. Suffice to say that it may appear as justice to some of us, while it may appear as free-will, or cause and effect to others.