Reincarnation and the Bible

[tiltjlp]

I am wondering if anyone here has heard IF the Vatican is still working on a revision?

I love your use of Revision, since I'm sure the Vatican will continue putting their spin on this. Below are three links. The first two discuss the scrolls and the Vatican, or Catholic POV, the third is to an online exhibit of the scrolls.

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/deadsea.html

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0193627.html

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html

John

 

[strawberrystar]

Catholic reincarnationist?


Hi,


after visiting these forums for quite some time now, I finally registered today to start posting my questions and personal experiences.


I was born and raised as a Christian Catholic but I've been having doubts about my religion due to my growing interest in reincarnation and after-life. It all started when I was 14. I was assigned by my teacher to write about Buddhism for a class project. Several religions were randomly "handed out" to different students. I had no former knowledge about this religion and being a computer freak I searched the internet for information about the topic.


A Google ad caught my eye. It said "heal your life by discovering your past lives". I was instantly drawn to clicking on it and so I did. I read the introduction and I was hooked. For me it all made sense (btw,I was also interested in Wicca and witchcraft at that time, but hadn't been exposed to the reincarnation topic). We can't learn everything in only one lifetime. We can't just be "robots" with flesh that are built on chemical reactions. There just had to be a spiritual explanation behind our urges, talents, interests and emotions.


I printed every article on that site and devoured every word.


After 6 months I remember thinking that I had to stop this "obsession" because of my Catholic upbringing. I was raised to believe in Heaven and Hell. I thought I was crazy for reading so much about reincarnation. And I planned on becoming a psychologist. So I gathered all the articles in a ring binder and put it in a memory box. I didn't open the box until my family and I moved to the city when I was 17. I remember looking at the ring binder when I was sorting out my things and feeling so drawn to its contents. It literally said: "open me. read me. read me". But I resisted.


Then one summer afternoon when I was 18 I lay on the green grass in my backyard and watched the skies move gently in one direction. The birds were chirping. The sun's rays gently caressing my skin. I suddenly felt "one" with everything. The skies. The universe. The animals. The plants. And I felt this inner peace that filled my chest. I was content and happy.


That's when I come to think about God. Questions about life were occupying my mind; what happens after we die? Is God really "unfair" by deciding if we're "good enough" to end up in Heaven or in Hell? I finally decided to research more on reincarnation. During these past 2 years I've collected several books by Michael Newton, Carol Bowman, Brian Weiss, Sylvia Browne and Elizabeth Clare Prophet.


I've been careful mentioning my interest in reincarnation to my parents. I tried it yesterday by reciting facts about parts of the Bible being "erased" and their interpretation. I didn't receive a happy smile on their face. They automatically assumed that I wanted to convert to another religion. And they told me that thanks to their belief in Catholism (my dad almost committed suicide when he lost his dad as a teen), I exist today (I wanted to say: well, I would have been born anyway, but in a different body but resisted from appearing disrespectful).


So how do I embrace both reincarnation and my Catholic religion? I feel no connection to the Catholic church because of their interpretation of the Biblical doctrines. The Catholic in my community seem so God-fearing. I don't go to church that often because I don't connect with the Catholic people. I only go there when it's Christmas and Easter. Yesterday my mom told me that I've let my religion down. That I have to show more appreciation by going to church. I wanted to tell her that God's everywhere and that I show my appreciating by being good to people. I believe in Jesus- but not in the same way my Church does.


I'm not satisfied with my religion and its teachings. I feel I'm being fake by attending the Catholic church.


I can't convert out of my Catholic church because I have to spare my family for humiliation. My mom's family is big so they will start talking behind my back.


I'm sorry for my long post. Just had to get it off my chest!

 

[Owl]

Hi


I was raised catholic too, although my family is more atheist than anything, they only made me take communion because of tradition and superstition.


Buddhism is a philosophy more than a religion, so you don `t have to convert to anything, besides what really matters is what you feel and think more than what others see you as, so i would suggest that the better is to not get out of catholic community except you`re ready for a major change (with that i mean going to another country to improve your spirituality, i wouldn `t do that, but i don `t know, maybe others would).


I don`t know how is it where you live, but i don `t find that the catholic ambient is too oppresive, there are not too much religious duties, only going to church and confess once in a while, compared to other christian religions is very little.


In your case i would keep going to church, first to keep everyone happy and without questioning, and second because catholic churches are a living piece of the past in the present, their architecture, their rituals, the bells calling the people from the town to go... it`s not representative of the XXI century, so maybe it can help you remember other times.


I risk to say that there is something between you and catholicism, otherwise you wouldn`t choose to born to such religious parents and you wouldn`t be so concerned about the whole matter, There`s a lesson about it you chose to learn in this life.


Is there anything you like about Catholicism?


PS: the first christians, the gnostics, believed in reincarnation.

 

[Charles Stuart]

Hi to both of you, and welcome Strawberrystar... :thumbsup:


Reincarnation is not a Catholic dogma, but was certainly a part of Jesus's messages. I believe you would enjoy these two thread on the topic:


Dogma bites man


The Gnostic Texts and Reincarnation

 

[Tinkerman]

Hello Strawberrystar.


Thank you for your heartfelt posting. The most important thing I can say to you is: you're not alone! I am a practicing Catholic and I very much believe in reincarnation. I awoke to it over many years of searching, many years of dreams/memories, and many years of confusion. I wrestled with it to the point of exhaustion and fear, all because of the institution of "church" laying guilt, upon guilt, upon guilt on me. One weekend a visiting missionary priest from India came to our church. I was busy working on the ranch and did not have the time to go to town to meet him. Out of pure coincidence (if there ever is coincidence: angel) I ended up at the same dinner table with him. As he sat across from me I sensed a powerful presence in him. When he looked you in the eye it was DEEP....almost uncomfortable. But it was at this time in my life I was struggling with very real memories of my past life as my Great-grandfather. I was impressed with his sincerity, depth and intellect. By the end of the evening I invited him to spend Sunday out at the ranch after all the masses, he accepted. He graciously came, ate and talked. I invited him to sit in my easy chair and rest the warm summer afternoon away. As he slept I felt the power of a holy-man in the room. It is hard to explain, but it was like he was really something soulfully special. That night after supper we went, with a bottle of wine, to the sunset bench that overlooks my fields and pasture, and the most incredible conversation occurred. If I could give to you, Strawberrystar, that conversation...I would. It was profound. He became almost a confessor in the most spiritual sense. It was not priest-subserviant...it was not church-peasant....it was not authority-ignorant.... It was soul to soul, Christ to Christ, believer to believer in the purest sense I've ever, ever known. In the midst of our talk I point blank ask him what he thought of reincarnation. He replied that God reveals truths to people as He knows they can understand them. I then revealed the story of my past life to him. He listened with intensity and a gentle smile. When I was finished he looked into the cavernous depth of my soul and said "you've been truly blest, I believe God has given you a gift... do not struggle with it."


For so long Catholicism, and indeed all religious institutions, have sought to think for the ignorant and lowly. To interpret and cloister their doctrine. Lets face it, over the centuries it was security in numbers, both in survival and economics. It wove itself into these sects that claimed authority in order claim numbers. When actually the very message of spirituality, especially in the Christian tradition, is a singular and solitary journey... the one on one relationship between the God, Great Spirit, Creator (whatever you choose to call Him/Her) and you. In my humble opinion we each must look toward our horizon for the truth. For me it has been Christianity...and I deeply believe reincarnation is a fact of faith lost over the centuries to the arrogance of authority. But that is my journey. Each Sunday when I hear the words "resurrection of the dead, and life of the world to come" it has powerful meaning to me.


Sorry I've rambled so. My words to you are: enjoy your earthly community and its traditions. Seek the truth in your own journey. Celebrate the mass not as duty but as a place of spiritual ceremony. Your spirit will awaken and know what to do. I've found that to be true in any church I've attended, no matter the denomination. Actually for me it was never more intense and holy than it was at a sacred Native American drum circle a few years ago. My spirit soared.


I look forward to hearing more of your journey. Know that you are most welcome here and your truths will always be respected.


Tinkerman

 

[Charles Stuart]

Tinkerman, what you have written so beautifully really touched my heart, my good friend... :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


I was raised an Anglican Protestant, and studied in my early years in a Catholic school, always with mass and bible classes. From the start I had so many questions: why are some people born into wealth while others in poverty? Why do some live such short lives while others live to be so much older? How could a Perfect God discriminate in such a way? How could a Perfectly Benevolent God institute an "eternal hell"? All these questions were answered when I learned of the beauty and "Perfect Justice" of Reincarnation, in which there is no such thing as an eternal hell, and we are all given equal opportunities in our various lifetimes.


:thumbsup::cool

 

[Tinkerman]

Thanks Charles for your kind words.


As I travel about the fields of my ranch I search everyday for things I need to do, things I need to fix (always a fence somewhere) and things I simply need to enjoy...savor. Entrusted with this land I have a responsibility to be a steward, a manager. If not the fences fall, the cattle roam, the cedars & thistles grow and the cycle of nature will reclaim it. I look at my soul's journey kinda the same way. I must be vigilant, observant, open minded and also grateful. I gotta see the blessings as well as the pitfalls...so I look in every corner. I am the ultimate keeper of me and steward of my journey. I love to read and understand the differing interpretations of the journeys others follow...I learn. Some years ago, here on the forum, we discussed acceptance and compassion for others and their beliefs. I believe knocking at the door of knowledge....will cause the door to open (stealing Somebody else's metaphor). Whether reading your book of Spiritism, the Bible, the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Zohar, the Koran etc. etc. all, in my opinion, began with the breath of the Great Spirit. When we attempt to possess and own these truths, when perspectives cease to be personal, when they become power outside personal, soulful, self-discovery, when their very doctrine chokes the belief, then they are like the musk thistle (a noxious weed). It is a journey as you discovered, with all of your relevant questions growing up. Strawberrystar is on the same journey we are....her fields, as yours, are a little different than mine...but none the less fields of a wonderful creation.


Take care my friend,


Tinkerman

 

[deborah]

Welcome strawberrystar,

So how do I embrace both reincarnation and my Catholic religion?

I would research the history of the belief's if I was you. Elaine Pagel's wrote two great books - The Gnostic Gospels and Beyond Belief.


In the book Beyond Belief she eloquently discusses the core issues of contemporary spirituality and the debates over whether Christianity is better understood as a system of doctrines OR a spiritual inquiry into the divine.


For example - we hear the word heresy as being an act against God and religion. But the original definition of the word heresy was -: an act of choice. The history behind that concept alone - is mind boggling.


She traces how Christianity began and positively inspires our culture to embrace much more than a set of belief's. The powerful affect the divine has on an individual in heart, mind, and spirit enables us to transform, heal and love self and others..


I wish you well on your journey. Please do not hesitate to ask questions or ask for reflections regarding your findings.

 

[strawberrystar]

Hi
I was raised catholic too, although my family is more atheist than anything, they only made me take communion because of tradition and superstition.


Buddhism is a philosophy more than a religion, so you don `t have to convert to anything, besides what really matters is what you feel and think more than what others see you as, so i would suggest that the better is to not get out of catholic community except you`re ready for a major change (with that i mean going to another country to improve your spirituality, i wouldn `t do that, but i don `t know, maybe others would).


I don`t know how is it where you live, but i don `t find that the catholic ambient is too oppresive, there are not too much religious duties, only going to church and confess once in a while, compared to other christian religions is very little.


In your case i would keep going to church, first to keep everyone happy and without questioning, and second because catholic churches are a living piece of the past in the present, their architecture, their rituals, the bells calling the people from the town to go... it`s not representative of the XXI century, so maybe it can help you remember other times.


I risk to say that there is something between you and catholicism, otherwise you wouldn`t choose to born to such religious parents and you wouldn`t be so concerned about the whole matter, There`s a lesson about it you chose to learn in this life.


Is there anything you like about Catholicism?


PS: the first christians, the gnostics, believed in reincarnation.

Hi again, I'm back I received a message from Tinkerman (thank you!) who encouraged me to give my thoughts on your replies. I've been working with different projects these past few weeks and I've recently been on a vacation in Spain so that's why I haven't been replying.


I fully agree with you that what's important is what I believe and feel. But it's a bit difficult due to my religious parents. From what I've experienced with them lately, they believe that Christians are betraying God, Jesus and the Church if they believe in reincarnation. They're kind of narrow-minded. I told them that parts of the Bible were erased because of authority etc. etc. but then they got irritated and asked: "So are you going to convert into another religion because of that?" They assume that I want to change religion due to my interest in reincarnation. And because of our family's honor it's "ugly" and "bad"to convert into another religion from what we're born in. But anyway, they have trouble believing that reincarnation is possible because of what's interpreted in the Bible by them since childhood and by their forefathers.


They believe that we're blessed by God to live once, and that we have one chance to "win" a space in heaven. My mother shows a lot of appreciation to God for her success in business by praying. And she says that by praying, you receive more luck...! I don't agree with her though....


I'm not going to convert to another religion because of my beliefs in reincarnation. I'll just stay in the Catholic community to make my parents and relatives happy. But I will keep on researching more about my spiritual self and past lives. There are a few things I like about my church, like, the architecture as you mentioned. It's beautiful and breathtaking. The people are friendly and a bit loud when they're in church. By loud I mean raising both their arms up, looking up with their eyes closed while singing. Most of them may start crying while doing this...! I find some people in my Church very intense, but that's my personal opinion..


Thank you for your thoughts

 

[strawberrystar]

Hi Tinkerman thanks for encouraging me to post in these forums!


What a wonderful experience you had with the missionary priest. Thank you for sharing this. But what exactly did he mean by "God has given you a gift"? I've heard that Christian priests who have witnessed people in regression believe that these past life memories are a part of a gift; a channeling ability. What are your thoughts on this?


I know what you mean about the church laying guilt upon guilt. I've experienced a lot of "if you're good you'll end up in heaven", if not, then "you'll end up in hell".


Now here are thoughts from a 20-year old on the Bible and Jesus:


"There's only one way to God and that's through Jesus Christ". I believe that Jesus Christ was an extraordinary man, like a healer or a psychic, who wanted to spread the message about God. I interpret "through Jesus Christ" as a metaphor. For me Jesus is a symbol of eternal love, understanding and forgiveness. Jesus/Buddha/etc. are for me, like symbols and metaphors to help me on the path to my Divine Self alas God. I think the Bible contains a lot of silly rules and restrictions. Since I was a kid, my parents and my church have been preaching about what's bad and sinful. Like smoking, drinking, sex before marriage, abortion, stealing and so on. This is according to the Bible and their Catholic morals. I don't find smoking, drinking, having sex before marriage and abortion as bad in context of growing up. I don't smoke (because I don't like the smell), I drink occasionally (but not excessively). Sex before marriage is normal (atleast among my friends) as long as you do it with someone you love. For most sex is an expression of love and wanting their partner intimately close. But that's another story.


Sorry if I'm rambling, but what I'm trying to say is that for me, there is one golden rule which is treat others as you would like to be treated. Don't steal from someone because you wouldn't like them to steal from you? Don't kill because you wouldn't want them to kill you? I believe abortion is forgiven by God-the Force. The soul in that fetus will come back anyway. The soul might not have arrived by the time of abortion.


I think smoking and drinking can be a bad thing for your personal and spiritual growth if it's misused or if it can hurt others or yourself.


I'm glad that you shared your wisdom with me. I feel encouraged to start a real journey on my spiritual self

 

[Charles Stuart]

Perhaps you could also ask your parents as to their own interpretations of these passages in the bible:

"...And the angel said to him: Do not fear, Zacharias, for your prayers have been heard; and your wife Isabel will bear you a son, and you shall name him John. And he will convert many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God; and will preceed him with the spirit and the virtue of Elijah, so that he may reconduct the hearts of the fathers to the sons" (Luke 1:13)

"Why do the they say that Elijah must first return? And Jesus answered them: It is true that Elijah must come to reestablish all things; but I declare to thee that Elijah has already come, and they knew him not, but did unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall the Son of Man suffer of them. And his disciples understood that he spoke of John the Baptist..." (Mathew 17:10)

"Master, we know that you have come in the name of God to instruct us as a doctor; for no one could perform the miracles that you have made if God were not with him. And Jesus replied to him: In truth I say to thee: No one can see the kingdom of heaven if he is not born again. Nicodemus aks: How can a man who is already old be born again? Can he enter his mother's womb, to be born a second time? Jesus replies: In truth I say to thee: If a man is not reborn of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit. Do not be startled by what I have said to thee, that it is necessary to be born again. The Spirit blows where it will, and you hear its voice, but you know not where it comes from or where it goes. It is the same with every man who is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus asked him: How can this be? And Jesus replied: What then! You who are a master in Israel ignores such things? In truth I say to thee that we do not speak of that which we do not know, and that we do not witness if not what we have seen; but still you will not receive our testimony. If you do not believe me when I speak to you of the matters of Earth, how then will you believe me when I speak of the matters of heaven?" (John 3:2-12)

"And, since the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven is achieved by force, and the violent take charge of it. Because all the prophets and the law, until John, have prophesized this. And, if you wish to understand, he himself is the Elijah who was to come. Those who have ears to hear, let them hear..." (John, 11:12)

It is interesting in this passage that Jesus should have said: "since the days of John the Baptist..." Why would he have said this in such a way if John the Baptist was then still alive? He was clearly refering to "since the days of Elijah". So he was once again stating that both were one and the same.


These are all very clear references to reincarnation in Jesus's own words...

 

[Tinkerman]

Hello Strawberrystar. Thanks for your replies. It's good to have your refreshing perspectives and how they relate to reincarnation. Your situation is very, very common to all Christians. The belief in reincarnation is not at all new and dates back to early Gnostics, Kabbalists-Jewish mystics etc. The structure of "church," the need for man to control the people, led to the revisions of ancient thoughts and beliefs. There are a few threads on just that here on the forum...I urge you to read them.


I would say to you that no one person has the answers. We are all on our own paths as eluded to earlier. You must open your heart to the things around you and discern their relevance to you. And it seems to me you are doing that in a wonderful way. Often times people will speak with a firmity and a force that implies their "truth" is fact-without-dispute. I urge you to hear them with caution, discern them in prayerful contemplation/meditation. The greatest injustice we can each do is force our truths on another....that is fundamentalism and we can see what that has done to the world. Jesus taught beautiful lessons on love and compassion. He indirectly touched on reincarnation as Charles mentioned. I cannot not define for you His deity true or false. To me...TO ME, and in my journey of faith He certainly is the Son of God. And not to end there I do believe that God has sent other "Sons" or messengers...I'll leave Their discovery to you...suffice it to say I believe we are foolish to imply the Creator (who ever you say She/He is) has some limitations, some defined barriers...I believe in the Infinite, The Light, the soulful progression of our earthly spirit towards a Truth. But I can't (and nobody else can either!) tangibly give it to you...thats your duty.


I feel blessed in my Christianity to believe what I do. We do not allow preaching here on the forum and for good reason...there are so many views and so many passionate people. But in regard to reincarnation you can rest assured you are not alone in being a Christian AND a reincarnationist...I am too. The concept fits beautifully within our teachings.


Strawberry, I believe that what the missionary meant was that the "Gift" was the memory/vision of my family in 1906. Indirectly he also meant the gift was a knowledge that reincarnation is indeed a reality. Channeling takes on meanings I'm very uncomfortable with in a modern sense. I simply believe, as the priest said, God saw the sadness and dispare in that life and granted my soul this truth, in this life, as an act of love and compassion. He showed me those loved ones are with me in this life. It was and still is a powerful, surreal message for me.


Charles, I agree with you too my friend.


Peace, Tinkerman

 

[Charles Stuart]

Hi Tinkerman,

Jesus taught beautiful lessons on love and compassion. He indirectly touched on reincarnation as Charles mentioned. I cannot define for you His deity true or false. To me...TO ME, and in my journey of faith He certainly is the Son of God.

Same here... :thumbsup: In my own personal view, he is/was, in fact, the first being created by God.


The reason he "indirectly touched on reincarnation" was because the people of 2000 years ago, in particular in the region where he lived and preached, did not possess the means to comprehend it. They could hardly understand what he was preaching, and hence his frequent use of parables. Now, 2000 years later, mankind has better means to comprehend it, but many are still "stuck" within concepts that are now 2000 years old, and even older. IMO the time has come to change all that...


In the book I recommended (The Gospel According to Spiritism), if you read it ignoring the fact that it may or may not be the result of mediumnity, I believe you will find the logics behind the interpretations quite astounding and clarifying. Here is an example:

The knowledge of physics was very imperfect in ancient times when it was believed that the Earth had risen out of the water. Therefore water was considered to be the exclusive primitive generating substance. This is why we read in the book of Genesis: "...the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters; it floated above the waters; .. . Let there be firmament in the midst of the waters; ... Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear; ... Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the Earth in the open firmament of heaven." According then to this belief, water represented the nature of matter, just as the Spirit represented the nature of intelligence. The words: "If man is not reborn of the waters and of the Spirit, or in water and in Spirit", thus signify -"if man is not born with his body and his soul". This is the manner in which these words were originally understood.
This interpretation is wholly justified by these other words: "What is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of Spirit is Spirit". Here Jesus established a clear distinction between body and Spirit. What is born of the flesh clearly indicates that only the body generates from the body and


that the Spirit is independent of it.

Jesus clearly states that, contrary to the current Christian beliefs, the Soul is not created simultaneously to the Body.

The words: "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear its voice, but know not from whence it comes nor whence it goes" are referring to the Spirit of God, who gives life to whom He
wishes, or rather to the Soul of man. The words "you know not where it comes from nor where it goes", signifies that we do not know who the Spirit had been previously or who it will be in the future. If the Spirit or Soul was created at the same time as the body we would know where it came from because we would know its beginning. Whichever way you look at this passage, it confirms the principle of the pre-existence of the Soul and subsequently the plurality of existences...

:thumbsup:

 

[Tinkerman]

Thank you Charles for your quotes. It is an example of the rich resources available to people on their journey and paths of discovery. I encourage everyone to read and study all they can...but with an open mind. In Strawberries case, attention to the history of Christianity is important. Again I refer to the related threads, I think Deb mentioned above. As you said eyes will see, and ears will listen.


Another way to think of early Christian references and the indirectness of the teaching may be that reincarnation was a common belief. They didn't need to refer to it directly, there is some thought that certain sects believed in it.


Tinkerman

 

[Charles Stuart]

Hi again, Tinkerman,


Just thought I'd throw in this last passage as a closing to the above:

Even if the concept of reincarnation as expressed by John the Evangelist might be interpreted in principle in a purely mystic sense, the same does not happen with the passage from Matthew, which allows for no ambiguity: He is Elijah, who was to come. Here there is nothing figurative, nothing allegorical, only a complete affirmation. 'Since the time of John the Baptist till today the Kingdom of Heaven is seized by force.' What do these words mean when John the Baptist was still alive at that moment? Jesus explains them to us when He says: 'If you wish to understand what I am saying, this is Elijah who was to come'. Therefore, if John the Baptist was Elijah, Jesus alluded to the time when John was living under the name of Elijah. 'Till the present time the kingdom is seized by force,' is another allusion to the violence of the Mosaic laws, which ordered the extermination of infidels so that the rest might attain the Promised Land, the Paradise of the Hebrews, whereas according to the new law Heaven was to be won by charity and mildness.
Jesus then added: He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. These words are frequently uttered by Him, telling us that not everyone was in a condition to understand certain truths.

Sadly, the "violent" have continued to take charge of the leadership of "institutional religion" for many, many years...

 

[Charles Stuart]

Hi again, Strawberrystar,


Quite certainly the early Christians had at least a vague knowledge of reincarnation and many (if not most) held the concept as part of their beliefs.


In the year 553 AD, however, the concept of reincarnation became "heretic" at the Council of Constantinopla, assembled by the Emperor Justinian, because, believe it or not, his wife, Theodora, who had formerly been a prostitute, feared the then current belief that a person could, in a future life, repeat much of what they had done in a prior existence and she feared that she would have to expiate for what she had been and done in her youth.


Pope Virgilius, who was then under arrest, opposed the Council and was, for this reason, dragged from a church in which he had hidden by Roman soldiers by his hair and beard.


After the Council, Pope Virgilius, who had been excomungated by the bishops gathered at the Council for not having participated in the meeting, signed the document so as to recover his position and avoid being permanently excomungated. It was rigorously in this way that the Roman Catholic Church put an end to the study of reincarnation and determined it as "heretic". The theme was then totally abolished and persecuted during the 600 years of the Holly Inquisition.


With the Prostestant Reform, in the 16th century, the new Christian movement inherited the traditional conception of the Council of Constantinopla, which is still in practice to this day.

 

[deborah]

HI Strawberrystar,


I came across an interesting term found in the Catholic Encyclopedia. Metempsychosis (Greek meta empsychos, Latin metempsychosis: French metempsychose: German seelenwanderung). A fairly archaic word meaning reincarnation and yet the term reincarnation is never used on their website.

Metempsychosis is the doctrine of the transmigration of souls and teaches that the same soul inhabits in succession the bodies of different beings......

 

[sailorbychoice]

I too was raised in the Catholic church. I was a seeker at a young age. As I looked at other religions, and philosophies I was thankful for the early teachings of the church as it gave me a mental folder to place "spirituality." I spent most of a decade in the US Navy, and was exposed to many philosophies in my travels. I also found the Catholic chaplains (priests) to be much more opened minded in other ways than the chaplains of the other religions, generally speaking; if you can get a priest away from the alter and share a bottle of wine, you'd be amazed at some of the things you can learn about Catholicism that you won't hear in the church.

 

[Zengirl]

What a great thread! Thank you Charles Stuart, Tinkerman, Strawberrystar and others here! Just adding more info to this subject of "Judgement" that was brought up earlier in this thread. In 1997 I had the lucky experience of my 4th NDE (near-death experience) that included my life's review. There were some things that brought me to tears but an angel got in front of me and said "We're not judging you. Only you are judging you". This is what we can expect at death; we will experience what our actions felt like to others who experienced them. We will feel what they felt. (Boy will that change how you do things in the future!) Then, we will judge ourselves. There was no Hell. If anything, Hell is here on Earth now for many people. There was only LOVE on the other side. : angel


I'd like to leave this website for further research and information on NDE's and also pastlife~


http://near-death.com/


~Zengirl

 

[soulfreindly]

Nice thread.. I appreciate the work that has gone into referencing the bible and all.. It is nice to have something to say when a religious person takes me to task on my belief.

"The Spirit blows where it will, and you hear its voice, but you know not where it comes from or where it goes." --- Could this be referencing our spirit reincarnating into someone else?


.

I would take this not to be being born into another person but that we do not have total control according to God's plan for us-- so we do not know everything all of the time for our own sake , nor do we know what our life will be like in our future. . This is how I relate to God--ie a wiser force of love than I and so I have the need to be guided by that love.

 

[soulfreindly]

Hi Karoliina,
You wrote:


"Doesn't the Bible say anyway that you don't go straight to heaven/hell, but all people will have to wait for the judgment day or something like that?"


I think I can maybe answer that one, since I was raised fundamentalist Christian. Most Christian churches believe that after death the soul goes straight to either heaven or hell, wherever it is bound for. They quote the biblical text, "Absent from the body, present with the Lord". (Sorry I don't have the chapter or verse).


I think that is why many Christians are surprised when they are met by 'guides' when they cross over. Often they will describe these as an angel, Jesus, Mary or some other biblical figure. Sometimes they also express surprise that they didn't 'go straight to heaven' but instead found themselves in a tunnel, drawn to a light.

One of my first memories was of my grandmother's death in this life at age 6. She had died in our house during the night. I remember her coming to me in spirit and being very disorientated I believe now that I know about spirit. She was telling me in spirit upon her death how grieved she was that she had not spent more time in spiritual matters.---like she was very surprised immediately upon her death and was more aware of her true spirit after death .. She said rather than just socialising and getting to know people superficiously she wished she had been better at getting to the heart of people.


She had been a minister's wife, deeply religious but missing out on the love she could have developed in that time . I learned from this great " communication" with her how important spirit is.. Now I just need to develop my communication skills better myself and trust that that is what we all want.. ie not worry to ruffle the feathers of the super religious unwilling to listen to knowledge of the spirit.. for that is really what they want....

 

[dking777]

There is no word for "eternity" in the original scriptures:

I had a NDE as a teenager and one of the concepts I came back with an interest in was the difference between the two realms. (material verses spiritual.)


The word for eternity in the Greek langauge is aionios {ahee-o'-nee-os}


It is used a total of 71 times in the NT.

• eternal 42,
  
• everlasting 25,
  
• the world began + 5550 2,
  
• since the world began + 5550 1,
  
• for ever 1;

Eternity is defined in a modern sense as being without beginning or end; existing outside of time.


When I came back from my NDE - I can recall speaking to 'spirits' about the concept of 'eternity' as it applied to my human mind. The said the short of it meant,


"In the realm without time."


Going into the spirit world - you leave the clocks of time behind in the physical world. You have an existence 'outside of time' while in spirit. Our "spiritual home" on the other side is without beginning or end while life in 'physical realm' has a beginning and end.


DK

 

[Tinkerman]

Here is one of my favorite threads on the forum... an earnest discussion on a topic so close to the hearts of many of us who wrestle reincarnation into our Christianity.


Enjoy, Tman

 

[Chevalier]

Can anyone mention a passage in the New Testament in which Jesus spoke of an eternal hell? Doubt one will be found...

 

[Nightrain]

Can anyone mention a passage in the New Testament in which Jesus spoke of an eternal hell? Doubt one will be found...

According to some translations of the New Testament, there are several passages in the Gospel of Matthew in which Christ is said to have mentioned Hell. It should be noted, however, that scholars have various opinions as to how the word has been translated and what "hell" actually means. Certainly, it is clear to most scholars that our present concept of hell has been greatly defined by theologians and kings over the course of twenty centuries, and there now is considerable doubt as to the veracity of authorship of the of many books written by unnamed authors.

 

[Chevalier]

Could you quote one, Nightrain? One you might remember off the top of your head? One we might discuss?


I cannot recall a passage in the New testament in which we might find him making reference to an eternal hell. To the consequences to our actions, yes.


The reigning concept of the Christian churches is one of division: either we go to heaven or to an eternal hell. How does reincarnation fit into this concept?

 

[Nightrain]

Could you quote one, Nightrain? One you might remember off the top of your head? One we might discuss?

Although I am not fond of quoting the Bible, which I consider to be—how can I put this with some degree of diplomacy?—the worlds greatest collection of paranoid propaganda, all anyone needs to do is google the words: Jesus Christ Hell quotes. One web site worthy of reading is here—that is, if you enjoy reading stories made up by unknown authors whose work has been continually edited by other unknown scribes over the course of two millenia.


It should also be noted that there are also passages which directly contradict Reincarnation, so if one believes everything in the Bible, we might as well end this particular discussion here and now. In addition we might also take the Old Testament literally and start stoning each other to death.


Forgive me for my somewhat obtuse response, but I sincerely don't feel that Religious and Scientistic dogma should have any bearing on whether we believe in Reincarnation, especially since there is so much current evidence and logical reasoning which would give us justifiable cause to accept the possibility.

 

[Chevalier]

You and I agree, Nightrain, and it is a delightful privilege to be speaking to you. What I was asking was if anyone could quote Jesus having spoken of an eternal hell in his own words, because I honestly cannot recollect there being one.


I have found enormous resistance to the concept of reincarnation not only from sceptics but also from Christian believers, who themselves should in principle be prone to believing in spiritual matters, but would still prefer to believe in the concept of a perfectly benevolent God who would condemn some of His children to a lifetime of eternal suffering, even if this contradicts the notion itself.


Hi, Mel. Tks for the link. Personally I believe that the concept of reincarnation is the one concept that brings all lines of religion and belief into one single spiritual truth...


I did a google search on "Jesus, hell" and this was one that came up:

"I was righteously indignant when, a number of years ago, a caller uttered these words on a call-in radio show I was conducting. Perturbed by his haphazard use of Scripture, I pointed out to him and the audience, that hell couldn’t possibly be something invented by Catholic theologians because Jesus talked about it. I forcefully read some of the passages where Jesus did, and concluded that hell couldn’t possibly be the invention of an apostate church.
I now believe that hell is the invention of Roman Catholicism; and surprisingly, most, if not all, of our popular concepts of hell can be found in the writings of Roman Catholic writers like the Italian poet Dante Alighieri (1265-1321), author of Dante’s Inferno. The English poet John Milton (1608-1674), author of Paradise Lost, set forth the same concepts in a fashion highly acceptable to the Roman Catholic faith. Yet none of our concepts of hell can be found in the teaching of Jesus Christ! We get indignant at the mention of purgatory—we know that’s not in the Bible. We may also find that our popular concepts of hell came from the same place that purgatory did-Roman Catholicism. The purpose of this study is to briefly analyze Jesus’ teaching on hell (more correctly gehenna, the Greek word for which hell is given), to see whether these popular concepts are grounded therein."

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html'>


http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html

 

[Khandisi]

I apologize in advance if this comment seems a bit rambling, but I want to reply to a few posts in this thread.


Like many of you, I was also raised as a Catholic. I served as an altar boy and almost entered the seminary to become a priest. I suppose it was the results of Vatican II that steered me away from the Church. Nevertheless, I never lost my faith in the Supreme Creative Intelligence we call God.


The first time I ever encountered a New Testament passage that gave me cause to consider the concept of reincarnation was when I read John 9:2 -


"And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?"


Setting Jesus's response aside for a moment, think about the question itself.


"his disciples" - I assume we are referring to the original twelve or at least some of them. I also assume that they asked the question based on their understanding of Jesus' teachings OR the common beliefs in the Judaic traditions of the time.


"who did sin" - An acknowledgement that sin can result in a consequence, but implies that the consequence was suffered by someone who had not sinned.


"this man" - This makes sense if the "man" received the consequence as the result of his own wrongdoing.


"or his parents" - So was the consequence meant for the parents' wrongdoings, and the "man" is suffering only as "collateral damage" for being their son?


"that he was born blind?" - Interesting. The disciples wanted to know if the blindness was the result of the man's sin. But this blindness was present at the man's birth. How would it be possible for the man to sin prior to his birth? Can sin be committed in the womb? Surely the disciples were intelligent men. Why would they ask such a question?


The only explanation would be that they believed in the pre-existence of souls AND reincarnation.


Jesus' answer to their question was: neither. The man was born blind that He (Jesus) would come along at that exact moment to cure the man (as Jesus did). Nowhere in this passage do we find Jesus challenging their question. It seemed to me that either Jesus taught his disciples the Law of Karma OR reincarnation was a widely held belief among the children of Israel.


For those of you who are Christian and are having problems reconciling your faith with the concept of reincarnation, consider this: I am of the opinion that the main reason, if not the sole reason, the Old Testament was included as part of the Christian Bible is due to the prophesies of Daniel and others that foresaw the coming of a Messiah, thus confirming that Jesus was the Son of God. However, by including the books of Daniel and other prophets, the other Old Testament books were also accepted to give the prophesies context in the history of Israel. In doing so, we are presented with the Old Testament God, who was vengeful, mean-spirited, homophobic, blood-thirsty, and capable of killing His own children by drowning them in a great flood. Most Christians I know find it hard to love such a god. If Jesus IS the Son of God, he is certainly not like his Father, is he?


I didn't feel like I got a handle on the teachings of Jesus until I studied Buddhism. Bear in mind that Buddhism is barely a religion; it is more a philosophy.


These are the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism:


1. Life means suffering.


2. The origin of suffering is attachment.


3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.


4. The path to the cessation of suffering.


If you don't believe in Hell, trying living one life on this earthly plane. There's your Hell. If you have ever had a LBL or NDE experience, compare your earthly life with the afterlife. Life means suffering; life is hell.


If possible, try to erase the concept of the God of the Old Testament from your mind. Replace it with a God or some Supreme Entity that gives you every chance you could ever want to learn right from wrong, to live and let live, and strive for perfection. Even if you think of this for only a moment, wouldn't such a God represent unconditional love, compassion, and justice? Would that not be a Heavenly Father who offers, not only forgiveness, but every opportunity for your spiritual development?


Take the time to research the various councils of Nicaea that took place after Constantine declared Christianity to be the official religion of the Roman Empire. Read about how the Bible was compiled, as well as the subsequent tenets and concepts that were banned as heresy by the early Church fathers. Choose your own sources for this information and try to separate fact from fiction. Ask yourself: If reincarnation was once part of the Judeo-Christian tradition, why was it removed?


Then go back and reexamine, not reject, your Christian faith. See if there isn't room in your mind and heart to believe in reincarnation while still holding on to your Christian beliefs. They may not be incompatible at all.

 

[dking777]

If you don't believe in Hell, trying living one life on this earthly plane. There's your Hell. If you have ever had a LBL or NDE experience, compare your earthly life with the afterlife. Life means suffering; life is hell.

Hi, I did have a NDE in 1978 and came back with a different opinion about it. I stated that "life" here on the earthly plane was an illusion.....something like a mirage created through 'mental perception' more so than anything. The ancients called this 'maya.'

• In traditional Hinduism individuals were seen as immersed in a world of illusion, called maya. In this world, distracted from the real world of spirit, one performs acts, and those actions create karma—consequences. In traditional teaching the goal of life was to escape karma. There was little difference between good and bad karma. Karma kept one trapped in the world of illusion. Source: Encyclopedia.com
  
• The karmic goal in reincarnation, however, is said not necessarily to raise the soul to a higher plain of existence, but entreat enlightenment to reign at whichever level of existence the soul happens to find itself. "Many…see the process of enlightenment as "ascension"; it is in fact more true to say that it is a process of descension, that is bringing the light down to all levels." Source: Encyclopedia.com
  
• So, instead of promoting resigned powerlessness, the early Buddhist notion of karma focused on the liberating potential of what the mind is doing with every moment. Who you are — what you come from — is not anywhere near as important as the mind's motives for what it is doing right now. Source: Karma
  

What I learned from my experience was, I felt we had two choices. Either creating a 'hell' on earth - or - creating a piece of 'heaven' here on earth. Karma from a past life had nothing to do with it. It was where your mind was in the current moment as far as a choice in obtaining 'knowledge' of the true reality which is eternal rather than a temporary illusion or mirage of our own mental creation.


Just my opinion based on my personal experience, of course.


DKing